Retirement Visa problem - New Rules

[timbota]

2 hours ago, brutox said:

 

Get this .. per police order No. 35/2561, retirees must now:

• Maintain THB 800,000 in bank account for 2 months PRIOR to application; AND,
• Maintain THB 800,000 in bank account for 3 months AFTER the retirement visa is issued; AND,
• Maintain THB 400,000 in bank account throughout the balance of the visa's validity.

[I guess these balances would be confirmed with each 90-day report.]

 

 

I am thinking (hoping) they would confirm the balances prior to extending/issuing the visa. 

And if they checked during a 90-day report and found insufficient funds?  Revoke the visa?  And issue what in its place?  Messy.

Also, previously at least, someone in my situation is rarely required to do a 90-day report.

[Jarrod2518]

20 hours ago, Spellforce said:

Does that mean if you make a deposit in that bank (800,000 bahts) = 2 years visa + good interest rates ?

In my experience funds invested in term deposit accounts are not counted.  The 800K has to be in a regular bank account with the cash accessible on demand. A few years ago in my regular Kasikorn  Bank account I had a large cash balance, considerably well in access of the required balance,  After receiving the letter of confirmation from the K bank en route to Jomtien to apply for retirement visa the account manager persuaded me to transfer a large amount to a fixed term deposit giving a better rate of interest. I was assured by the bank that this was OK for visa purposes. It reduced the balance in the regular account to 500K. As was explained to me in Jomtien when they inspected the regular account book:,  "Mr you must have the 800K in a regular account for three months, you now not have." I showed then the special account book with a very substantial six  figure investment and explained that the Account Manager said it was the same. His response - "Banks do not approve visas, we do. Next Please!" 

[Soi7]

1 minute ago, Jarrod2518 said:

In my experience funds invested in term deposit accounts are not counted.  The 800K has to be in a regular bank account with the cash accessible on demand. A few years ago in my regular Kasikorn  Bank account I had a large cash balance, considerably well in access of the required balance,  After receiving the letter of confirmation from the K bank en route to Jomtien to apply for retirement visa the account manager persuaded me to transfer a large amount to a fixed term deposit giving a better rate of interest. I was assured by the bank that this was OK for visa purposes. It reduced the balance in the regular account to 500K. As was explained to me in Jomtien when they inspected the regular account book:,  "Mr you must have the 800K in a regular account for three months, you now not have." I showed then the special account book with a very substantial six  figure investment and explained that the Account Manager said it was the same. His response - "Banks do not approve visas, we do. Next Please!" 

Perfect example of immigration making their own rules up as they go. They refused you they have always accepted mine the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing if only everybody we're on the same page it would be so much easier

[Scuba+]

Stop me now if I am opening an issue that is discussed earlier, and I will read back through this thread.
But .. but .. money being re-cycled can be manipulated to fall short of the minimum THB 65,000 monthly income .. a guy living here on THB 25,000 per month could hack the system with an actual annual income of only THB 365,000 [(25,000 x 12) + 65,000] .. less than the minimum THB 780,000 [65,000 x 12].
Does the government require a certification of that monthly income? .. pension statement? .. retirement account? .. anything? .. if not certified, how is that monthly income verified to the satisfaction of the Thai government?
 

One of the issues with the new system is method of transfer, Transferwise is hit and miss with whether it shows as International and so can't be relied upon. If swifts are used instead they can cost an extra £35 a month (swift £25 + thai bank charge £10). I was going to do 65k a month but I'm now leaning towards 800k method to keep things simple

[kane666]

16 minutes ago, Soi7 said:

Perfect example of immigration making their own rules up as they go. They refused you they have always accepted mine the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing if only everybody we're on the same page it would be so much easier

Which is all anyone can really ask for - clarity and consistency. I don't really have an issue with the rule changes, imo they are still pretty fair hurdles for retirees,. What shits me is the IO's can basically do what they want and you have no recourse. There is a recent thread on TV where a guy was told the combo method is no longer acceptable. This is a direct contradiction to the new stated police orders!

I was having a coffee recently in Jomtien. At the table next door were 4 farang women of advanced age. One was clearly new to the retirement gig and was recounting her experience at immigration which obviously hadn't gone well. "So I demanded they tell me where the complaints desk was!! And they just laughed at me!!" 

Edited February 4, 2019 by kane666
spelling

[Oukiva]

14 minutes ago, timbota said:

2 hours ago, brutox said:

Get this .. per police order No. 35/2561, retirees must now:

• Maintain THB 800,000 in bank account for 2 months PRIOR to application; AND,
• Maintain THB 800,000 in bank account for 3 months AFTER the retirement visa is issued; AND,
• Maintain THB 400,000 in bank account throughout the balance of the visa's validity.

[I guess these balances would be confirmed with each 90-day report.]

I am thinking (hoping) they would confirm the balances prior to extending/issuing the visa. 

And if they checked during a 90-day report and found insufficient funds?  Revoke the visa?  And issue what in its place?  Messy.

Also, previously at least, someone in my situation is rarely required to do a 90-day report.

You think way too complicated! Immigration Officers will want to (try to) keep it simple.

Very probably (IMHO) there will be no intermediary/90-days check, so no "under consideration" extension, no revoked extension, but just a check of your balance history at your next extension.

Your next extension they will check 800k during 3 months (old rules)

and at following extensions your passbook will need to show these minima :

800 800  (X)  800 800 800 / 400 400 400 / 400 400 400 / 400 800 800  (X+1) … 

[kane666]

13 minutes ago, Scuba+ said:

One of the issues with the new system is method of transfer, Transferwise is hit and miss with whether it shows as International and so can't be relied upon. If swifts are used instead they can cost an extra £35 a month (swift £25 + thai bank charge £10). I was going to do 65k a month but I'm now leaning towards 800k method to keep things simple

FWIW (not my image):

[Oukiva]

29 minutes ago, Jarrod2518 said:

In my experience funds invested in term deposit accounts are not counted.  The 800K has to be in a regular bank account with the cash accessible on demand. A few years ago in my regular Kasikorn  Bank account I had a large cash balance, considerably well in access of the required balance,  After receiving the letter of confirmation from the K bank en route to Jomtien to apply for retirement visa the account manager persuaded me to transfer a large amount to a fixed term deposit giving a better rate of interest. I was assured by the bank that this was OK for visa purposes. It reduced the balance in the regular account to 500K. As was explained to me in Jomtien when they inspected the regular account book:,  "Mr you must have the 800K in a regular account for three months, you now not have." I showed then the special account book with a very substantial six  figure investment and explained that the Account Manager said it was the same. His response - "Banks do not approve visas, we do. Next Please!" 

Your story is not very clear to me . Why did you show your regular passbook (without enough money) to immigration if your 800k+ were on another account?? You only had to show the one mentioned on the bank letter, the one with +800k...

There are many reports (mainly on ThaiVisa) that Jomtien Immigration accepts without problem KasikornBank Fixed Deposit Accounts. 

[dave01]

11 minutes ago, kane666 said:

FWIW (not my image):

Strangely, I use Transferwise exclusively for transfers from OZ and they are ALWAYS shown as International Transfer, with BKK Bank. As is mentioned in the email, Transferwise uses 3 Banks here, so maybe the tip is to bank here with one of the 3 banks they deal with.... Because the money is coming directly from O/S to one of those 3 banks.  If you aren't a customer of one of the three banks, it makes sense that the transfer from the receiving bank (of the transfer from O/S) to your account is an internal transfer....

[Oukiva]

22 minutes ago, Scuba+ said:

One of the issues with the new system is method of transfer, Transferwise is hit and miss with whether it shows as International and so can't be relied upon.//

One big question right now is how will officer see/find your international transfers ?

Not all passbooks show a clear code for that. Swift transfer is often FTT, FTN or similar, but not always. Cheap transfer provider, like Transferwise, are another problem as the last leg of the transfer is a local/domestic one.

A one year period is a long period for a bank account and can run on several passbooks. A laborious task for officers to try to locate the 12 valid transfers. It would be easier if banks could provide a filtered listing with only international input transfers,... and could include TransferWise and alike inside... Can they do that? 

[kane666]

4 minutes ago, Oukiva said:

One big question right now is how will officer see/find your international transfers ?

Not all passbooks show a clear code for that. Swift transfer is often FTT, FTN or similar, but not always. Cheap transfer provider, like Transferwise, are another problem as the last leg of the transfer is a local/domestic one.

A one year period is a long period for a bank account and can run on several passbooks. A laborious task for officers to try to locate the 12 valid transfers. It would be easier if banks could provide a filtered listing with only international input transfers,... and could include TransferWise and alike inside... Can they do that? 

Just have 2 accounts, 1 for the xfers in which you then xfer to the second account for your daily use/withdrawals so 12 deposits and 12 withdrawals only in the first account.

Alternatively / also pay the 100-200 baht for an annual statement from the bank and highlight each foreign xfer.

 

[brutox]

3 hours ago, brutox said:

 

... Thai public policy is commonly poorly conceived and even more poorly executed, and seems to migrate around before settling into a poor public policy.

 

 

1 hour ago, kane666 said:

 

... Bottom line is nobody really knows yet.

 

 

Hah! .. yeah, you got that right, kane666 .. the implementing policy is issued and no immigration officials know how it works .. this is how public policy seems to be created here.

Ready! .. load! .. cock! .. shoot! ........ uhh, aim!

 

 

 

[Jarrod2518]

40 minutes ago, Oukiva said:

Why did you show your regular passbook (without enough money) to immigration if your 800k+ were on another account?? You only had to show the one mentioned on the bank letter, the one with +800k...

Ok let me clarify - I showed them the two bank books. The book covering the regular had up to the issue of the Bank confirmation letter more than adequate funds. It showed the transfer that morning to the Special Interest account.  The Special Interest deposit, account book which had a six figure amount was also shown but returned to me as not counting as it was "an investment account".   Fortunately I had a Plan B.  However, it highlighted to me that they were purposely driving you into the arms of the agents. Now why would they do that?  Is there a benefit to them to do that? 

[davidge]

1 hour ago, Scuba+ said:

1 hour ago, brutox said:

Stop me now if I am opening an issue that is discussed earlier, and I will read back through this thread.
But .. but .. money being re-cycled can be manipulated to fall short of the minimum THB 65,000 monthly income .. a guy living here on THB 25,000 per month could hack the system with an actual annual income of only THB 365,000 [(25,000 x 12) + 65,000] .. less than the minimum THB 780,000 [65,000 x 12].
Does the government require a certification of that monthly income? .. pension statement? .. retirement account? .. anything? .. if not certified, how is that monthly income verified to the satisfaction of the Thai government?
 

One of the issues with the new system is method of transfer, Transferwise is hit and miss with whether it shows as International and so can't be relied upon. If swifts are used instead they can cost an extra £35 a month (swift £25 + thai bank charge £10). I was going to do 65k a month but I'm now leaning towards 800k method to keep things simple

SWIFT costs me £9.50 with Lloyd’s. Appreciate other banks charge more. I only bothered with TransferWise once as it’s simpler to do it from my banking App. Once the first one was done the information was all there so a matter of seconds to send the subsequent transfers. They only do verification check for a new payee.

[jed§]

All this just makes me think that I don't want to try to settle in Thailand. It's complicated, the rules change suddenly on a whim or because someone's been appointed to a position and they decide off their own bat to come up with a new law etc. It seems clear that there is a large part of Thai officialdom and maybe people (who knows what they're really thinking?) who don't really want too many foreigners living there. Actually, sometimes I feel as if I don't blame them! 

[Scuba+]

FWIW (not my image):

Yes I've seen various versions of that, the problem is you can't choose which local partner Transferwise use of the 3, if Bangkok bank and you have a bangkok bank account it will show up as International, if they use local partner Kasikorn or TMB then it shows as local.

You could have 11 monthly transferwise payments showing as International and 1 as domestic and the IO may well say application denied

 

[Soi7]

1 minute ago, Scuba+ said:

Yes I've seen various versions of that, the problem is you can't choose which local partner Transferwise use of the 3, if Bangkok bank and you have a bangkok bank account it will show up as International, if they use local partner Kasikorn or TMB then it shows as local.

You could have 11 monthly transferwise payments showing as International and 1 as domestic and the IO may well say application denied

 

And that's a gamble that most probably can't afford to take it's just a major klusterfuk

[Scuba+]

SWIFT costs me £9.50 with Lloyd’s. Appreciate other banks charge more. I only bothered with TransferWise once as it’s simpler to do it from my banking App. Once the first one was done the information was all there so a matter of seconds to send the subsequent transfers. They only do verification check for a new payee.

Its swings and roundabouts with the swift charges, some banks charge lower swift fees but have higher monthly fees. Santander charge £25 for swifts which is too high but pay 1.5% on their current account. Now I'm in Thailand its not so easy to set up new bank accounts in the UK

[udontony]

3 hours ago, Soi7 said:

Perfect example of immigration making their own rules up as they go. They refused you they have always accepted mine the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing if only everybody we're on the same page it would be so much easier

Took a Thai lady friend to immigration with us to support our married extension application.  The immigration officer told us we needed someone to do this even though I have had many extensions in the past.   This ladies husband wants to get a married extension in a few months time so he came along as well to find out what he needed to do, the next immigration officer to the one dealing with us told him you only need this first time you apply.   Literally two different stories from immigration officers sitting a few feet appart at the same time!

[timbota]

1 hour ago, jed§ said:

All this just makes me think that I don't want to try to settle in Thailand. It's complicated, the rules change suddenly on a whim or because someone's been appointed to a position and they decide off their own bat to come up with a new law etc. It seems clear that there is a large part of Thai officialdom and maybe people (who knows what they're really thinking?) who don't really want too many foreigners living there. Actually, sometimes I feel as if I don't blame them! 

Agreed. 

Probably the number of foreigners is not as much of a concern as the quality of the foreigners.   I suspect the Thai level of quality is directly proportional to how much money is being injected into the local economy and not dependent on much else.

 

[Billyboy294]

(4) At least 2 months prior to filing date, and at least 3 months after being granted permission, the alien must have fund deposited in a bank in Thailand of no less than THB 800,000. The alien can withdraw the fund 3 months after being granted permission and the remaining balance must be no less than THB 400,00 or;

(5) Must have and annual earning and fund deposited with a commercial bank in Thailand totalling of no less than THB 800,000 until the filing date. The said fund must remain in the account prior to and after the permission is granted and the alien can make a withdrawal under the same conditions as stated in (4).

The new requirements to keep 400k baht in the bank for three months after the retirement visa is granted is effective from 1st March  2019."

 

As I understand it according to Para (4) at present you must keep the 800,000 baht  in the account  for at least 3 months after RV is granting. I had never heard of this before so is this not a "new requirement".

But after 1st March 2019 you can reduce the 800K to 400K under a "new requirement",

Where is this "new requirement"  which apparently contradicts Para (4). It looks like i will have to keep 800K in the account for 3 months after i get the RV

A bit confusing ; I am due to renew my RV on 18th Feb 2019

Edited February 4, 2019 by Billyboy294

[Scuba+]

Agreed. 
Probably the number of foreigners is not as much of a concern as the quality of the foreigners.   I suspect the Thai level of quality is directly proportional to how much money is being injected into the local economy and not dependent on much else.
 

short sighted though, the farang at all levels support an ecosystem of Thais

[Billyboy294]

34 minutes ago, Billyboy294 said:

(4) At least 2 months prior to filing date, and at least 3 months after being granted permission, the alien must have fund deposited in a bank in Thailand of no less than THB 800,000. The alien can withdraw the fund 3 months after being granted permission and the remaining balance must be no less than THB 400,00 or;

(5) Must have and annual earning and fund deposited with a commercial bank in Thailand totalling of no less than THB 800,000 until the filing date. The said fund must remain in the account prior to and after the permission is granted and the alien can make a withdrawal under the same conditions as stated in (4).

The new requirements to keep 400k baht in the bank for three months after the retirement visa is granted is effective from 1st March  2019."

 

As I understand it according to the new Criteria effective from January 2019, under Para (4) at present you must keep the 800,000 baht  in the account  for at least 3 months after RV is granting. I had never heard of this before so is this not a "new requirement".

But after 1st March 2019 you can reduce the 800K to 400K under the "new requirements",

Where is this "new requirement"  which apparently contradicts Para (4).

It looks like i will have to keep 800K in the account for 3 months after i get the RV

A bit confusing ; I am due to renew my RV on 18th Feb 2019

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by Billyboy294

[timbota]

8 hours ago, Scuba+ said:

short sighted though, the farang at all levels support an ecosystem of Thais

Minus the level working here illegally.  Makes sense that the Thai authorities would want verification that a foreigner has sufficient funds being transferred in from outside the country to reasonably live on.   Simply sitting on a +800K bank account doesn't mean they are not working here illegally.

[Soi7]

3 minutes ago, timbota said:

Minus the level working here illegally.  Makes sense that the Thai authorities would want verification that a foreigner has sufficient funds being transferred in from outside the country to reasonably live on.   Simply sitting on a +800K bank account doesn't mean they are not working here illegally.

I parked the money in the bank when I moved here then I went to work and continue to work for 14 years. Well this is a little off-topic it always rubbed me the wrong way that being that when I bought my condo the money had to be brought in from out of the country. Despite that I had a work permit a business Visa a social security card and a tax number that I paid into and I made good money. That money couldn't be used in their eyes to buy my condo I would have to send the money out of the country and then have it sent back in. I checked with a couple of law firms and they said that was the case unbelievable. I made the money here I paid tax on the money they have all the records to show that yet I still had to bring the money in from out of the country. As it turned out I was able to use the money here because I found a bank that would give me the Tora Tora 3 that I needed to buy the property that stated the money came from out of the country for a fee of course . But still I found that to be ridiculous. But their country there rules if I want to stay here I abide by them.