Hot Resale At The Golden Tulip - Foreign Quota

[jpmelville]

6 hours ago, Yabusaki said:

Aloha,

Thanks for your comments! My only concerns were unit price for electricity. Several of my friends got their monthly electric bills from Provincial Electric Authority of Chonburi and their unit price was much lower than mine! IMHO, Unit cost or unit price should be same acrossthe board set by Provincial Electric Authority of Chonburi! 

I guess it's possible to get the meter directly from PEA and then they will send bill to you. Now juristic office is accountable of the meters and will also generate your bill. That is not free. 5bht/unit is very cheap. For me in the same situation as yours juristic office charged 6bht/unit.

[Yabusaki]

3 hours ago, likeaking said:

^ My experience with guesthouses, not condos, is the guesthouse sets the monthly rates and they vary between guesthouses.  

Greetings,

Also, If you rent an apartment, the monthly electric bills are generated by the manager and usally he will levy surcharges to electricity unit costs! Therefore, renting a condo suppose to receive a non surcharged monthly electric bill because it's directly from the provincial electric authority but not if you live at Grand Avenue Residence!

[brutox]

Maybe someone can recall, but the government not so long ago made substantial changes to the Thai Civil Codes regulating rental property .. they finally offered relief to tenants against unscrupulous landlords who were getting out of control.

The new rules applied only to major property owners, with more than I think 5 or 10 units .. I recall the code changes included security deposits, sub-metered utilities, lease terminations, and adverse possession.

For affected landlords, I believe electricity can no longer be sub-metered and marked-up .. I expect few farang would know of this and insist that their landlords amend their lease agreements to conform to the new codes.

You might ask about this.

Incidentally, the electricity metre in my BKK high-rise condo is read by the MEA (Metropolitan Electric Authority) and charged directly to me .. juristic has no right to intervene .. you might want to ask about this .. in a 100-unit condo, adding 0.6 mils to the top of the PEA's electricity rate adds about THB 30,000 to the juristic's monthly revenue, even only on a low THB 2,500 monthly average electric bill per condo.

Edited May 12, 2020 by brutox

[Ru4Real]

21 minutes ago, brutox said:

The new RULES applied only to major property owners, with more than I think 5 or 10 units

Yep, it's more than 5. Along with being illegal to charge more than the government rate for electricity and water only allowed to ask for 1 month in advance deposit.

That said, TiT 

[Evilfriar]

3 hours ago, Yabusaki said:

Greetings,

Also, If you rent an apartment, the monthly electric bills are generated by the manager and usally he will levy surcharges to electricity unit costs! Therefore, renting a condo suppose to receive a non surcharged monthly electric bill because it's directly from the provincial electric authority but not if you live at Grand Avenue Residence!

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that apartments are charged a higher rate by the PEA compared to Condominium's, somewhere in the order of 10 baht per unit?

Anyway, good to know about Grand Avenue even if the extra amount is pretty small.

Cheers 

[talung66]

On 12/05/2020 at 12:31, Yabusaki said:

Aloha,

FYI, to all the perspective renters and buyers of the Grand Avenue Residence, monthly electric charges are generated by Juristic Office and not by Provincial Electric Authority of Chonburi! Therefore, my monthly unit price of electric usage are higher than other condo renters and owners!

It will be generated by the PEA once the owner has his chanote and installs a PEA meter.

Water will not change it is standard in condos for additional rates included in the bill for pool and extras 

On 12/05/2020 at 17:12, forcebwithu said:

Since there's nothing in the Amount column for the water charge I'm thinking they screwed up and put the total in the Unit Price column. That's still quite high at 35B/unit. Just got my water bill today and it works out to 12.2B/unit.

I gather your in a house or unit  with no juristic office.

As mentioned standard for condos few thread on subject added below

VT6 will charge you 45 baht if your not there and not using water calling it maintenance fee.

On 13/05/2020 at 04:52, Evilfriar said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that apartments are charged a higher rate by the PEA compared to Condominium's, somewhere in the order of 10 baht per unit?

Anyway, good to know about Grand Avenue even if the extra amount is pretty small.

Cheers 

Your correct this covers the owner for additional cost like corridor  and out side lighting fees added to CAM fees all standard practice.

in this case as mentioned the owner wont have  got his chanote as yet so the bill is generated from the juristic office till a PEA meter is installed.

I have added threads on topic discussed before.

 

 

[talung66]

On 13/05/2020 at 04:52, Evilfriar said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that apartments are charged a higher rate by the PEA compared to Condominium's, somewhere in the order of 10 baht per unit?

Anyway, good to know about Grand Avenue even if the extra amount is pretty small.

Cheers 

Out of time for edit excuse above.

Not that i know about  

It is the individual owners charging extra to cover themselves standard practice for shorter term rentals.

[Yabusaki]

Greetings,

As of May 18, our swimming pools, Gyms and saunas are still closed to residents and their guests! Juristic Office Manager is waiting for authorization to open from the Complex owner, who resides in Israel.

He said, "earliest could be Wednesday or Thursday! Majorityof residents are very upset including myself!

Edited May 18, 2020 by Yabusaki

[gusincebu]

Greetings,
As of May 18, our swimming pools, gyms and saunas are still closed to residents and their guests! Juristic Office Manager is waiting for authorization to open from the Complex owner, who resides in Israel.
He said, "earliest could be Wednesday or Thursday! Majorityof residents are very upset including myself!

My condo pool etc are still closed also .Our juristic says the the conditions relating to reopening are too difficult to enforce ..

Pool staff on duty at all times .
Only certain number of swimmers in pool at a time ..must stay in separate lanes .( 1 hour max , per swimmer )
In pool for exercise only .no loitering for chatting etc .

Gym ..no cardio machine to be used ..no treadmill etc .
Free weights only ..

Sent from my Mi A2 Lite using Tapatalk

[Yabusaki]

9 hours ago, gusincebu said:

My condo pool etc are still closed also .Our juristic says the the conditions relating to reopening are too difficult to enforce ..

Pool staff on duty at all times .
Only certain number of swimmers in pool at a time ..must stay in separate lanes .( 1 hour max , per swimmer )
In pool for exercise only .no loitering for chatting etc .

Gym ..no cardio machine to be used ..no treadmill etc .
Free weights only ..

Sent from my Mi A2 Lite using Tapatalk
 

Greetings,

Today, the pools, Gyms and saunas were open for residents! Finally, I can start exercising like everybody else to lose weight!

Good luck!

[wido]

On 12/05/2020 at 15:25, Yabusaki said:

unit price for electricity. Several of my friends got their monthly electric bills from Provincial Electric Authority of Chonburi and their unit price was much lower than mine! IMHO, Unit cost or unit price should be same acrossthe board set by Provincial Electric Authority of Chonburi! 

For the owners with title deed the next invoice, june, is from PEA.

[wido]

For june i've been charged for paying for the common expenses. But they don't hold a meetinng for the owners where they explain what they did with the amount therefor we paid after the handover. I think this is not according the condominium act. What can we do?

[Rick Blaine]

On 22/08/2016 at 08:31, paulyd2k said:

JDM,  he is also very loaded,555555

You mean he "used to be  loaded"?        

[Yabusaki]

22 hours ago, wido said:

For june i've been charged for paying for the common expenses. But they don't hold a meetinng for the owners where they explain what they did with the amount therefor we paid after the handover. I think this is not according the condominium act. What can we do?

Greetings,

I'm not an owner but I've heard that the owners must wait until the Grand Avenue complex is transferred to the Association by the construction developer. And it could take long as 2 years so be patient till it's transferred!

Edited June 29, 2020 by Yabusaki

[brutox]

4 hours ago, Yabusaki said:

Greetings,

I'm not an owner but I've heard that the owners must wait until the Grand Avenue complex is transferred to the Association by the construction developer. And it could take long as 2 years so be patient till it's transferred!

As I recall, the replacement of the developer with a juristic happens when 50% + 1 of the total unit titles are transferred.

When the Condominium Act was amended in 2008, it included this condition to prevent unscrupulous developers from doing exactly what appears to be happening here (if I've understood this correctly).

Under the developer's control (prior to juristic formation), the common area maintenance fees became an extension of the developer's budget to complete work that is a part of the developer's base building construction costs .. concealed and unaccountable to the owners .. prior to 2008, this was a common practice by local-local developers .. I recall no publicly-listed developers being accused of the practice.

I believe the 2008 regulation amendments also require that the developer contribute its share of common area maintenance fees for every unit still in its name when the juristic is formed and fees commence being collected.

So .. here is the coolest cheat .. developer drags feet on signing over title deeds for a fallacious reasons, and limits the transferred units to 49% .. the 49% are contractually obligated to pay maintenance fees .. the developer avoids paying common area maintenance fees, even though legally required (a common practice here by many condominium owners, about as common as jay-walking, and taken about as seriously) .. developer uses the money paid by condominium owners as a part of its construction budget to complete the project.

As long as owners with their titles continue to accept this, the developer is under no particular pressure to conform to the regulations (it is a civil offence, not a criminal offence) .. a minor issue to be 'negotiated' if forced into it.

Folks .. that ain't gonna' happen unless owners organize and confront the issue with the developer .. not the toothless person he pays to stand between the buyers and himself.

One at a time, individual complainants probably get glad-handed right out the back door by the very nice, sympathetic gatekeeper the developer uses to avoid actually having to meet any of his buyer-victims.

I am guessing here, but I suspect the developer assumes he is dealing with innocent foreigners with no understanding of the regulations, and little understanding of how to bring a Thai to the table, or worse case put them onto a court docket .. ummm, probably a good guess.

If this is happening, there might be three things that force the developer to comply with the Condominium Act:

• Organizing other owners and buyers still waiting for their land title deeds and forcing the developer to comply with the Condominium Act;
• Bad publicity, especially if it is developing its next property and relying upon pre-sales (be cautious here .. Thai laws on defamation are liberal .. it can be done, however); or,
• Stop paying common area maintenance fees .. I think there are conditions that must be met before owners are compelled to commence payments (I think maybe only after the juristic is formed) .. with what is going on, those conditions might not have been met, despite what any sales contract might claim.

First, though .. read .. the .. regulations.

They are published in English and reasonably comprehensible .. the regulations consist of the earlier Condominium Act B.E. 2522 (1979), which was amended with the codification of the Condominium Act B.E. 2551 (2008) .. the latter edition is not an updated version of the former, but an amendment changing selected sections of the former act .. they are applied together:

• http://web.krisdika.go.th/data/outsitedata/outsite21/file/Condominium_Act_BE_2522_(1979).pdf
• https://www.dol.go.th/estate/DocLib/act 2008.pdf

Second.. pool resources and retain counsel .. always, always a hair-pulling frustration, unless you are dealing with a bona fide international firm (of which there are none in Pattaya) .. securing reliable, trustworthy counsel here is a subject on its own.

The legal strategy would not be to drag this into court (where an inescapable and uncertain Thai Vortex lurks for both litigants) .. rather, make the developer realize that in numbers you have leverage .. use the threat of litigation to get the developer to accede to the regulations, if he is not complying .. negotiation is most often the preferred solution here, and one which Thais also favor.

But .. my guess is that the developer is quite experienced at this game, and if it is doing it right, this could go on for a long, loooong time.

Good luck.

Edited June 29, 2020 by brutox

[brutox]

Just curious .. have any of the owners here ever actually met the developer? .. not the layers of gatekeepers, but .. the .. managing .. director? .. or, even know where the developer's office is located?

 

[Yabusaki]

17 hours ago, brutox said:

Just curious .. have any of the owners here ever actually met the developer? .. not the layers of gatekeepers, but .. the .. managing .. director? .. or, even know where the developer's office is located?

 

Greetings,

In March, I saw the main guy walking around and giving instructions to workers but currently, he's stuck in Israe and can't get into Thailand!

Edited June 30, 2020 by Yabusaki

[Fired Up Paul]

Interesting post @brutox - as always.

The western way is to keep the property pristine until the near last unit is sold.

Then things can go downhill when people are paying their own fees as they realise for example, that the developer was paying more for the upkeep than the budget allows for.

And that the developer did so with an ulterior motive - to sell the remaining stock.

[wido]

20 hours ago, brutox said:

.. here is the coolest cheat .. developer drags feet on signing over title deeds for a fallacious reasons, and limits the transferred units to 49% .. the 49% are contractually obligated to pay maintenance fees .. the developer avoids paying common area maintenance fees, even though legally required (a common practice here by many condominium owners, about as common as jay-walking, and taken about as seriously) .. developer uses the money paid by condominium owners as a part of its construction budget to complete the project

Indeed. I see the maintenance staff every day working in the unfinished units and complete it. I wonder if the developer will pay for it. Not at all in mine opinion. Also with the finishing of the common area.!!

[wido]

3 minutes ago, wido said:

Indeed. I see the maintenance staff every day working in the unfinished units and complete it. I wonder if the developer will pay for it. Not at all in mine opinion. Also with the finishing of the common area.!!

And also if there are defaults in your unit, the maintenance staff repair it. And who pay this staff... The co-owners.

Edited June 30, 2020 by wido

[McGinty]

Sounds like those who buy new builds get a bum deal.

If that's the case, is the smarter option to buy an older property on the resale market, when everything is transferred and there is a history of maintenance fees. That way what you see is what you get, so less potential headache.

I know there are plenty of 2nd hand properties available, some at a discount to the original purchase price.

Is there any good reason to but a new build, apart from new condo feel?

[vivid2]

6 hours ago, McGinty said:

Sounds like those who buy new builds get a bum deal.

Is there any good reason to but a new build, apart from new condo feel?

There are pros and cons to buying new.  Since you've mentioned a few of the negatives...here are some good reasons to buy new.

1.  Building codes have gotten stricter over the years so a new build conforms to the latest updated codes.  This also means that you're getting a safer, more modern, and more energy efficient unit.  The new plumbing fixtures use much less water, the new bulbs use much less energy, the new windows reflect more heat and seal much better, and the new air conditioners are way more efficient than older ones.

2.  New unit has new plumbing, new electrical including high speed data, new sewer lines, new appliances, new windows and doors, new air conditioning etc.  

3.  The maintenance costs are going to be far less in new buIldings than in older ones.  The maintenance costs go up as the building ages....roofing, caulking, patching and painting the exteriors and interior common areas, elevator(s), pool(s), electrical, plumbing, air conditioning, etc.  
 

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by vivid2

[brutox]

On 01/07/2020 at 20:34, McGinty said:

Sounds like those who buy new builds get a bum deal...

Hey, McGinty .. yes, the number of innocent foreigners burned by buying off plan condos from unscrupulous and incompetent developers here are legion.

There are many risks when buying Thai property.

But .. the .. single .. greatest .. risk .. is "developer" risk .. by far and away.

Gazillions of buyers of Pattaya condos get shafted by buying off plan from local-local developers .. by local-local, I mean developers who are not sufficiently creditworthy to even secure a conventional construction loan from a major bank .. they rely upon off-plan deposits, which are totally unsecured, to fund the construction.

These developers include Thais and farang, so do not be fooled by a friendly fellow countryman .. the regulations here are deeply flawed and vulnerable to abuse, and farang use them to their advantage no differently than the Thais.

Buying off plan is a much, much, much less risky prospect when buying from a publicly-traded developer:

• They are properly trained professional developers, and the quality of their design and construction work is at an entirely different class than what the local-local developers produce .. (think of the reliability of an Eastern European made car versus Japanese made);
• They invest their own equity in their projects and do not rely upon other people's money (buyer's unsecured deposits) to fund construction;
• They have the financial strength to secure conventional bank construction financing from a bona fide major bank to assure the project in completed;
• Banks closely monitor how their loans are being deployed to assure projects remain on schedule and under budget, and often appoint third party professional consultants to inspect the work and the progress;
• They are typically developing multiple projects and the failure of one will affect the sales of other projects;
• Publicly-traded developers have a lot to lose if they do not deliver at the project level .. their shareholders, media coverage, and the capital markets punish them at the corporate level if they fail on a project; and, 
• Publicly traded companies are under the supervision of the Thai Securities Exchange Commission and held to the highest standards of corporate governance available in Thailand.

I would not hesitate to buy off plan from a publicly traded developer .. you will pay more, but you do get what you pay for.

Local-local developers are not selling what publicly traded developers are selling .. it is an entirely different product, without the risk that it might never be completed and the buyer will lose the entire deposit.
 

Edited July 2, 2020 by brutox

[talung66]

On 28/06/2020 at 14:58, wido said:

For june i've been charged for paying for the common expenses. But they don't hold a meetinng for the owners where they explain what they did with the amount therefor we paid after the handover. I think this is not according the condominium act.

On 28/06/2020 at 14:58, wido said:

What can we do?

TIT nothing i think

i know of some in centara that talk to each other and dont pay them.

As far as i know it the same across the road in centara and there 4 years ahead of you.

i have mentioned in thread before paying fees with out the book are just lining someone pockets

On 29/06/2020 at 13:00, Yabusaki said:

Greetings,

I'm not an owner but I've heard that the owners must wait until the Grand Avenue complex is transferred to the Association by the construction developer. And it could take long as 2 years so be patient till it's transferred!

From what i have heard dont know how it works may be @brutox can explain

Thai owners dont pay of their  purchase.  Someone told me some story about  Thai only pay the deposit till CAM  fees are used up and that can take many years to remove them.

[brutox]

On 29/06/2020 at 10:00, Yabusaki said:

Greetings,

I'm not an owner but I've heard that the owners must wait until the Grand Avenue complex is transferred to the Association by the construction developer. And it could take long as 2 years so be patient till it's transferred!

 

10 hours ago, talung66 said:

As far as i know it the same across the road in centara and there 4 years ahead of you.

i have mentioned in thread before paying fees with out the book are just lining someone pockets

From what i have heard dont know how it works may be @brutox can explain

Thai owners dont pay of their  purchase.  Someone told me some story about  Thai only pay the deposit till CAM  fees are used up and that can take many years to remove them.

[ The Condominium Acts to which I refer below are linked in post #1889 above. .. yeah, yeah, they are long, but cover a lot. ]

Hey, men .. I have not re-read the Condominium Acts in some time, but loosely recall:

Before amendments were made to preexisting Condominium Act B.E. 2522 (1979):

• Developers could (and did) maintain control of the Condominium Association well after the majority of the building units were sold and their titles transferred;
• Developers often earned additional fees as the property managers, self-appointed by the Condominium Associations they controlled (an unethical "connected transaction");
• After transferring a title deed, each buyer was obligated to start paying common area maintenance fees (CAMs), regardless of the building's readiness for occupancy;
• The developers paid no CAMs on unsold units they still owned, arguing that their vacancy caused no wear and tear to the building and warranted no CAMs;
•  The developers controlled all the CAMs and spent them as they saw fit, often on unfinished base building construction work and repairs for which they were obligated to cover under warranty.

The government amended the 1979 act with Condominium Act B.E. 2551 (2008), which corrected for this abuse and addressed other major deficiencies (such as illegal foreign ownership under nominee structures .. interesting reading if you want to know the jail terms and fines for violations) .. under these amendments:

• Developers must concede control to an independent Condominium Association when the titles to 50% + 1 of the total units are transferred;
• Buyers are not obligated to pay CAMs until the base building construction is complete, their units are legally habitable, their land title deed is transferred, and the Condominium Association is formed;
• The Condominium Association cannot appoint the developer, or a developer affiliate as the property manager;
• When CAMs start being collected, developers are obligated to pay CAMs on all unsold units still under their ownership;
• Developers can, through no special voting rights (proxies), exercise majority control over the Condominium Association; and,
• I believe there was something about publishing a detailed CAMs budget at the time of the sale, or when the Condominium Association is formed and CAMs start being collected.

If I correctly understand what is going on here, the developer appears to be getting away with violating Condominium Act B.E. 2551 .. an attorney familiar with Thai property regulations could quickly make a determination .. I do not image the cost of a consult  and few hours time checking the project status at the Land Department would cost more than THB 5-6,000 max.

An important caveat, about which I am uncertain .. perhaps a deception, viewed as a generous developer concession for failing to deliver the land title deed (yeah, yeah, okay .. call me cynic!) .. by accepting early occupancy of a unit before receiving their land title deeds, buyers might have conceded their above rights, and be caught in a pre-Condominium Association 'no mans land', under the legal control of the developer.

That's all I got, men .. read the codes yourselves .. talk to an attorney .. good luck.

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by brutox