Formula 1

[butterfly bob]

On 01/11/2020 at 16:04, butterfly bob said:

Williams have been struggling this year. Now George Russell crashes trying to keep up with the safety car! 

He has since given very honest interviews about his mistake and promised to learn from it. I was impressed with his response until he crashed into the pit lane wall before the start of the race. 

[PepeLePew]

7 times world champion Lewis Hamilton, and he did it in style. Well done. Most probably Englands most successful sportsman ever.

[keepitfun]

1 hour ago, PepeLePew said:

7 times world champion Lewis Hamilton, and he did it in style. Well done. Most probably Englands most successful sportsman ever.

Big call, not sure.  To me the epitome of an English sportsman...

Phil Taylor.  What an athlete.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Taylor_(darts_player)

 

[vimto66]

17 hours ago, PepeLePew said:

7 times world champion Lewis Hamilton, and he did it in style. Well done. Most probably Englands most successful sportsman ever.

Extremely debatable, as i`ve said before Pepe my friend, Lewis Hamilton would not be at the top of the tree if it wasnt for the fact he drives in the best car, good driver maybe, but how good we`ll never know until he drove a season in a so called inferior car, you could say other sports are competitively unbalanced, but F1 is so unbalanced its rarely a contest.

[kimternet]

13 minutes ago, vimto66 said:

Extremely debatable, as i`ve said before Pepe my friend, Lewis Hamilton would not be at the top of the tree if it wasnt for the fact he drives in the best car, good driver maybe, but how good we`ll never know until he drove a season in a so called inferior car, you could say other sports are competitively unbalanced, but F1 is so unbalanced its rarely a contest.

Whoever is in the lead Mercedes seat and winning will face that same doubt. From the drivers perspective, everyone wants the best car, and the best constructors will get the pick of the best drivers.

If you put any of the top 10 drivers in the lead Mercedes seat they would win the championship, but I don't think many would win it with the same ease he has this year, Lewis makes it look easy. Max or Leclerc are probably the best of the next generation, but both still seem to make more mistakes than Lewis, who in the fastest car is also under the most pressure.

Would love to see Ricciardo or Norris in the Mercedes, or both. McLaren will be a lot of fun to watch next season.

[PepeLePew]

5 hours ago, vimto66 said:

Extremely debatable, as i`ve said before Pepe my friend, Lewis Hamilton would not be at the top of the tree if it wasnt for the fact he drives in the best car, good driver maybe, but how good we`ll never know until he drove a season in a so called inferior car, you could say other sports are competitively unbalanced, but F1 is so unbalanced its rarely a contest.

2007 season, 2008 season both in inferior cars. 1 championship win, 1 lost by a very narrow margin and a team mistake rather than a driver mistake, and up against Alonso as a team mate. The last race was another example of his supreme driver skills. Sure you can doubt Schumachers 'greatness' thanks to the way he won his titles, cheating, ensuring his team mate is unable to beat him, but Lewis? No way, he has nothing left to prove. If you can't see beyond the fact he is in the best team then you need to simply look a little deeper at the performances.

[vimto66]

8 hours ago, PepeLePew said:

2007 season, 2008 season both in inferior cars. 1 championship win, 1 lost by a very narrow margin and a team mistake rather than a driver mistake, and up against Alonso as a team mate. The last race was another example of his supreme driver skills. Sure you can doubt Schumachers 'greatness' thanks to the way he won his titles, cheating, ensuring his team mate is unable to beat him, but Lewis? No way, he has nothing left to prove. If you can't see beyond the fact he is in the best team then you need to simply look a little deeper at the performances.

Yep, good driver i accept, but lets be honest, put him in one of the lower ranked cars Haas ferrarai or Alfa romeo and the world title would be out of sight after a few races, put an average driver in the best car and he`d have a good chance of at least of being world champion or at least challenging.

I get the fact some drivers are better than others, in all sports some athletes have the edge sometimes massively, but the only way to  judge a drivers worth is if he could coax points finishes out of the `also ran` cars, im afraid it just wouldnt happen, not on a regular basis anyway, often they dont even finish, there may be good drivers but the car is the star.

Hamilton may well be a great driver but the sport is so skewed.

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by vimto66

[PepeLePew]

On 18/11/2020 at 01:24, vimto66 said:

Yep, good driver i accept, but lets be honest, put him in one of the lower ranked cars Haas ferrarai or Alfa romeo and the world title would be out of sight after a few races, put an average driver in the best car and he`d have a good chance of at least of being world champion or at least challenging.

I get the fact some drivers are better than others, in all sports some athletes have the edge sometimes massively, but the only way to  judge a drivers worth is if he could coax points finishes out of the `also ran` cars, im afraid it just wouldnt happen, not on a regular basis anyway, often they dont even finish, there may be good drivers but the car is the star.

Hamilton may well be a great driver but the sport is so skewed.

 

Nope, you just need to look harder.

Of course if you stuck Hamilton or Senna or Clark in a Williams they'd be running round at the back but that doesn't mean the driver doesn't make a huge difference, or that an average driver could rack up 7 world titles, it simply doesn't work that way. Take the last race Turkey. The Merc was not the best car, it was the 3rd or even 4th best. Lewis had no right to win that race, and yet he did, by a massive 30 second margin lapping his team mate whilst at it. He wasn't in the fastest car (Norris got fastest lap, Stroll got pole). he wasn't in the best handling car, that was the racing point. He was just the best driver and it made the difference. Remove Lewis from the last 7 years and you don't have 7 constructor titles, you have  5, Bottas was 5th in 2018, 3rd in 2017. and he's no slouch at the wheel. 

You say the sport is skewed, I think that just shows you don't really understand how F1 works. All the greats have been in the best cars. Why wouldn't they. From Fangio to Stewart to Prost to Lewis. It's the way the sport works but being in the best car is just 1 element, Ask Hill in 94 and 95. 

[vimto66]

22 hours ago, PepeLePew said:

Nope, you just need to look harder.

Of course if you stuck Hamilton or Senna or Clark in a Williams they'd be running round at the back but that doesn't mean the driver doesn't make a huge difference, or that an average driver could rack up 7 world titles, it simply doesn't work that way. Take the last race Turkey. The Merc was not the best car, it was the 3rd or even 4th best. Lewis had no right to win that race, and yet he did, by a massive 30 second margin lapping his team mate whilst at it. He wasn't in the fastest car (Norris got fastest lap, Stroll got pole). he wasn't in the best handling car, that was the racing point. He was just the best driver and it made the difference. Remove Lewis from the last 7 years and you don't have 7 constructor titles, you have  5, Bottas was 5th in 2018, 3rd in 2017. and he's no slouch at the wheel. 

You say the sport is skewed, I think that just shows you don't really understand how F1 works. All the greats have been in the best cars. Why wouldn't they. From Fangio to Stewart to Prost to Lewis. It's the way the sport works but being in the best car is just 1 element, Ask Hill in 94 and 95. 

 

 

Sorry pepe but i disagree unreservedly, its so skewed it would be a  surprise if Hamilton didnt win the title or finish runner up, many a time a grand prix isnt a race at all...its a procession, if a lower ranked car finishes in the points its sometimes a cause for wild celebration for that particular team, bit of an odd analogy but F1 is like putting heavyweight boxers against flyweights.

Maybe too simplistic and in the realms of fantasy, but if every car was the same a drivers true class would shine through over a season, Hamilton may well still finish top of the pile, but it would be a damn sight more exiting.

[PepeLePew]

16 hours ago, vimto66 said:

 

 

Sorry pepe but i disagree unreservedly, its so skewed it would be a  surprise if Hamilton didnt win the title or finish runner up, many a time a grand prix isnt a race at all...its a procession, if a lower ranked car finishes in the points its sometimes a cause for wild celebration for that particular team, bit of an odd analogy but F1 is like putting heavyweight boxers against flyweights.

Maybe too simplistic and in the realms of fantasy, but if every car was the same a drivers true class would shine through over a season, Hamilton may well still finish top of the pile, but it would be a damn sight more exiting.

 

Yes, which is why you are unreservedly wrong. F1 is not a spec series, never has been. the clue is in the name 'formula'. You need to design and build a good car then employ a good driver. one without the other is not going to win. If you build the best car then employ the best driver, guess what?

But that is all irrelevant in terms of assessing 'greatness'. There are 'greats' who have never won a single championship and 'not so greats' who have won many. There are other metrics that you need to look at.

It sounds like F1 isn't the sport for you which is fair enough. Lots of sports that I don't enjoy. I tend to ignore them rather than complain about them not being exciting enough. 

[keepitfun]

2 interesting perspectives and a good debate that doesn’t need one to tell the other to pack his bat and ball and go home.

A question then.....was Seb Vettel a shit driver in a good car and still a shit driver in a crap car was he a good driver in a crap car and is still a good driver in an even crappier car or did his skill somehow flip flop around 2014?
 

 

[PepeLePew]

14 minutes ago, keepitfun said:

2 interesting perspectives and a good debate that doesn’t need one to tell the other to pack his bat and ball and go home.

I get bored of debating anything with people who are clearly not that interested in it. What's the point?

15 minutes ago, keepitfun said:

 

A question then.....was Seb Vettel a shit driver in a good car and still a shit driver in a crap car was he a good driver in a crap car and is still a good driver in an even crappier car or did his skill somehow flip flop around 2014?
 

 

Seb was/is a very good driver. By the end of 2009 the Red bull was the best car but the damage was done early season and Jenson hung on to win by his fingernails. 2010 was a close run season car wise, Seb just pipped it, 2011 the red bull was starting to clear the field, 2012 and 2013 it was dominant and seb only had to beat Mark. 

Seb is the perfect example of someone with multiple titles who probably isn't a 'great'. There is a lot of evidence that he suited the driving characteristics of the 2009-2013 red bull which had a blown diffuser and required mid corner throttle to stick it to the ground. Once that was taken away Seb started to look quite ordinary, beaten by Ricciardo in 2014 by about 70 points and despite a reasonably decent challenge in 2017 pretty lacklustre driving since. No doubt a better driver in the 2017 Ferrari would have won the title, one of the greats definitely would. 

Sebs skill hasn't flip flopped. He was in a great car that suited him at the right time. Perhaps he's gone off the boil in the last few years, he's certainly made more mistakes than he used to. Age? Fatherhood? Environment? Who knows?

[Fire Bar Matt]

3 hours ago, PepeLePew said:

Yes, which is why you are unreservedly wrong. F1 is not a spec series, never has been.

And hopefully never will be. As you’re surely aware there’s been some recent talk amongst the Sky Sports commentators about a spec I.C.U but I really hope that never happens. There’s already enough spec series in motorsport, and I get why, to help reduce costs and such but we need F1 to remain as it is. Not being spec allows the sport to deliver incredible cars that are so wonderfully highly engineered by a lot of very smart people. Not to mention the fact that we get a lot of engine and design advancements that eventually make their way into road cars.  

[PepeLePew]

1 hour ago, Dr No said:

And hopefully never will be. As you’re surely aware there’s been some recent talk amongst the Sky Sports commentators about a spec I.C.U but I really hope that never happens. There’s already enough spec series in motorsport, and I get why, to help reduce costs and such but we need F1 to remain as it is. Not being spec allows the sport to deliver incredible cars that are so wonderfully highly engineered by a lot of very smart people. Not to mention the fact that we get a lot of engine and design advancements that eventually make their way into road cars.  

There is already a standard ecu, has been for years. McLaren make it. Not sure what the Sky guys have been saying, I'm not a fan of Sky coverage and tend to watch the free to air stuff, C4 here in UK.

Specs parts is a thorny issue. It does make sense though to stop the teams from spending millions on parts that end up being virtually the same and fans never see or notice. A case in point is the brake ducts that Racing point got in trouble for. They were accused of making a direct copy of the mercs (illegal) but they claim that they designed their own and that they just ended up being very similar to the mercs (legal). Funnelling air to the brakes efficiently is of limited interest to the spectators. making each team spend silly money making their own seems a waste. Allowing them the choice of buying more (insignificant) spec parts or designing their own seems the way forward

[vimto66]

As we`re on the subject you might find this interesting, maybe you`ve seen it already, whatever was he (or his lawyers) thinking.

Lewis-Hamilton-loses-three-year-legal-battle-ban-luxury-watchmakers-Hamilton-brand.html

Edited November 21, 2020 by vimto66

[Fire Bar Matt]

4 hours ago, PepeLePew said:

There is already a standard ecu, has been for years. McLaren make it. Not sure what the Sky guys have been saying, I'm not a fan of Sky coverage and tend to watch the free to air stuff, C4 here in UK.

Specs parts is a thorny issue. It does make sense though to stop the teams from spending millions on parts that end up being virtually the same and fans never see or notice. A case in point is the brake ducts that Racing point got in trouble for. They were accused of making a direct copy of the mercs (illegal) but they claim that they designed their own and that they just ended up being very similar to the mercs (legal). Funnelling air to the brakes efficiently is of limited interest to the spectators. making each team spend silly money making their own seems a waste. Allowing them the choice of buying more (insignificant) spec parts or designing their own seems the way forward

I’m more than happy to admit to just being a fan, not fanatical and please correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding is an ECU is a computer, and ICU or ICE refers to the actual engine (unit) that there is talk of specing. In essence the internal combustion engine could become a spec piece of equipment and the teams are free to develop their own hybrid technology in addition to it. I guess it’s just talk for now. 
I get your point regarding the brake ducts but if for example the Merc ducts were the spec and Ferrari found they didn’t work as well on their car as their own then that may hinder their overall development. I can’t see RB or Ferrari agreeing to it. 

[PepeLePew]

5 hours ago, Dr No said:

I’m more than happy to admit to just being a fan, not fanatical and please correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding is an ECU is a computer, and ICU or ICE refers to the actual engine (unit) that there is talk of specing. In essence the internal combustion engine could become a spec piece of equipment and the teams are free to develop their own hybrid technology in addition to it. I guess it’s just talk for now. 
 

I suspect they are just filling time with speculative chat. There's been a few red flags, full restarts, qually sessions stopped etc of late so commentators end up saying all sorts of things. I've heard nothing about spec ICUs. I can't see it happening.

5 hours ago, Dr No said:

I get your point regarding the brake ducts but if for example the Merc ducts were the spec and Ferrari found they didn’t work as well on their car as their own then that may hinder their overall development. I can’t see RB or Ferrari agreeing to it. 

Yes, which is why I think giving them a choice of spec or self design they should be the way forward. Your point re development is exactly why the richer teams have resisted spec moves in the past but with the oncoming budget cap who knows?

 

[butterfly bob]

On 17/11/2020 at 17:04, PepeLePew said:

2007 season, 2008 season both in inferior cars. 1 championship win, 1 lost by a very narrow margin and a team mistake rather than a driver mistake, and up against Alonso as a team mate. The last race was another example of his supreme driver skills. Sure you can doubt Schumachers 'greatness' thanks to the way he won his titles, cheating, ensuring his team mate is unable to beat him, but Lewis? No way, he has nothing left to prove. If you can't see beyond the fact he is in the best team then you need to simply look a little deeper at the performances.

The Mclaren was not an inferior car. If it wasn't the best it was very close to that. It was closer than any other cars are compared to Mercedes right now. 

When there was genuine competition Lewis won one and lost one. That's the way it goes. Winning 6 championships in 7 years, most of them easily, clearly shows the lack of the competition there has been during that time. If he hadn't had more reliability problems than Rosberg in that year he would have won 7/7. 

Lewis has proved he deserves to be considered one of the greatest by his performances in good cars and bad. If there was a Senna in an equal car, or his team mate was someone of Prost's calibre, then he would have won half of what he did. He would still be just as great. The stats don't make him the GOAT.

Edited November 21, 2020 by butterfly bob
twice

[PepeLePew]

2 hours ago, butterfly bob said:

The Mclaren was not an inferior car. If it wasn't the best it was very close to that. It was closer than any other cars are compared to Mercedes right now. 

When there was genuine competition Lewis won one and lost one. That's the way it goes. Winning 6 championships in 7 years, most of them easily, clearly shows the lack of the competition there has been during that time. If he hadn't had more reliability problems than Rosberg in that year he would have won 7/7. 

Lewis has proved he deserves to be considered one of the greatest by his performances in good cars and bad. If there was a Senna in an equal car, or his team mate was someone of Prost's calibre, then he would have won half of what he did. He would still be just as great. The stats don't make him the GOAT.

If it wasn't the best then by definition it was inferior 

2 of the 6 wouldn't have been won by Merc if Lewis wasn't in the car and Bottas was. 2017/2018. The Ferrari was close enough to challenge until they were told to stop cheating. 

Lewis has never dictated his team mate and has consistently been challenged by them, even beaten once but that took so much effort (and a bit of cheating and unreliability) that Rosberg immediately retired. I agree that stats only tell a part of the story but when you compare how Schumacher racked up his stats to how Lewis has the achievement is more impressive.

[butterfly bob]

1 hour ago, PepeLePew said:

If it wasn't the best then by definition it was inferior 

2 of the 6 wouldn't have been won by Merc if Lewis wasn't in the car and Bottas was. 2017/2018. The Ferrari was close enough to challenge until they were told to stop cheating. 

Lewis has never dictated his team mate and has consistently been challenged by them, even beaten once but that took so much effort (and a bit of cheating and unreliability) that Rosberg immediately retired. I agree that stats only tell a part of the story but when you compare how Schumacher racked up his stats to how Lewis has the achievement is more impressive.

Maybe the Mclaren was the best. It's debatable, Either way it had strengths over the Ferrari. Calling it inferior is misleading.

Bottas has shown that he can be beaten over a season by a slower car. That's why only having to beat Bottas in the same car hasn't been a great achievement.

I disagree about the 2/6 stat. Ferrari and Vettel both blew it so they didn't make serious challenges in the end. If Alonso or Verstappen was in the Ferrari then there would have been a competition, even with a clearly inferior car. Sadly we never got one.

Ferrari had to stop cheating in the 2019 season. They were already well behind before they hit their brief mid-season form. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by butterfly bob

[PepeLePew]

32 minutes ago, butterfly bob said:

Maybe the Mclaren was the best. It's debatable, Either way it had strengths over the Ferrari. Calling it inferior is misleading.

Bottas has shown that he can be beaten over a season by a slower car. That's why only having to beat Bottas in the same car hasn't been a great achievement.

I disagree about the 2/6 stat. Ferrari and Vettel both blew it so they didn't make serious challenges in the end. If Alonso or Verstappen was in the Ferrari then there would have been a competition, even with a clearly inferior car. Sadly we never got one.

Ferrari had to stop cheating in the 2019 season. They were already well behind before they hit their brief mid-season form. 

If it wasn't the best it was inferior. Simple as that.

Beaten by Raikkonen in 07, with 8 victories between the drivers, taking points off each other. Taken to within a point by Massa in 08. In both years the drivers made the car look better than it was against superior machinery with inferior drivers.

The 2/6 stat is undisagreeable. Remove Lewis from the picture and Ferrari are champs in both years. It's maths!

Seems that just because you have a dominant car the driver still makes the difference.

[butterfly bob]

On 21/11/2020 at 16:43, PepeLePew said:

If it wasn't the best it was inferior. Simple as that.

Beaten by Raikkonen in 07, with 8 victories between the drivers, taking points off each other. Taken to within a point by Massa in 08. In both years the drivers made the car look better than it was against superior machinery with inferior drivers.

The 2/6 stat is undisagreeable. Remove Lewis from the picture and Ferrari are champs in both years. It's maths!

Seems that just because you have a dominant car the driver still makes the difference.

It is highly contentious. Remove Lewis and you put another no. 1 driver in the car who would win the championship instead. All it proves is that Bottas had 2 terrible seasons. Being better than that is not a big compliment. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by butterfly bob

[PepeLePew]

15 hours ago, butterfly bob said:

It is highly contentious. Remove Lewis and you put another no. 1 driver in the car who would win the championship instead. All it proves is that Bottas had 2 terrible seasons. Being better than that is not a big compliment. 

Who mentioned putting another driver in? Don't make assumptions. Just remove Lewis from the equation and what it proves is that just having the best car is not enough, as Bottas had that in 17/18 and came 3rd and 5th.

[jerry]

3 Mercs ... Hamilton , LeClerc and Verstappen ... that would be something ...  . 

[PepeLePew]

1 hour ago, jerry said:

3 Mercs ... Hamilton , LeClerc and Verstappen ... that would be something ...  . 

 

It would.

There was a time when drivers would jump into other categories and race. In the 1980s Merc provided a grid of 190E's and most of the grid lined up for a pre race race