Formula 1

[kimternet]

1 hour ago, Dr No said:

I can’t believe Perez does not have a drive for next year, personally I can’t see Vettel performing as well as Perez has driven this year and Racing Point has made the wrong decision in signing Vettel. 

It will be a tragedy if Perez doesn't get a drive for next season. They did similar to Hulkenburg last season, but Perez is even better and also brings in good sponsorship and a huge Mexican audience. Surely Redbull must be tempted to demote Albon and give the seat to Perez, there's no question over who the better driver is.

[kane666]

1 minute ago, kimternet said:

I'm not a Hamilton fanboy, but you have to give the man his dues.

Imho Hamilton is a great geat driver. But he is not the greatest ever. He could win another 3 in the Mercedes and I still wouldn't think he is the greatest ever. All the weekend did was prove how insane the car gap is between the Mercs and the rest.  A 2nd year driver who hadn't sat in the car before the weekend and barely even fit in it topped the first 2 practice sessions, missed pole by a bees dick and would have won but for an almost unheard of Mercedes team mistake.

Couple that with Mercedes sticking with Bottas who is a clear clear clear #2 driver instead of opting for someone who might actually challenge Hamilton week in week out.

Hamilton is the greatest - of his generation.

[Tatanka]

If it wasn't for the safety car Mercedes would have lapped the whole field yesterday,

Yesterday's race proved for me what I already knew:

- Mercedes is in a league of their own

- Bottas is a very average driver

- Russel is super talented

- Hamilton is a great driver but no way the GOAT

- Max gets the best out of his car for sometimes competing with the mercs

[PepeLePew]

What an excellent race. Everyone knew that Russell was good but now we know he is exceptional. Did almost exactly what Verstappen did in his first race for a top team. Handled the pressure like a pro and took on a years worth of Merc bad luck in one race.

I think Bottas is a very good peddler but he has been worn down by 4 years against the goat. Rosberg left the sport in similar vein. I doubt Merc will move Bottas aside for Russell but I think they should as he's clearly lost his edge.

[butterfly bob]

11 hours ago, Tatanka said:

If it wasn't for the safety car Mercedes would have lapped the whole field yesterday,

Yesterday's race proved for me what I already knew:

- Mercedes is in a league of their own

- Bottas is a very average driver

- Russel is super talented

- Hamilton is a great driver but no way the GOAT

- Max gets the best out of his car for sometimes competing with the mercs

Mercedes' own prediction before the race was to lap 26 cars -  some cars twice.

[butterfly bob]

12 hours ago, kimternet said:

I don't think Russell has under performed on race days, he's just been in the 10th slowest car and has seriously over performed in quali. 

Obviously this weekened he showed he has the talent to handle a top car under huge pressure (which I'm not sure Bottas can quite do), the luck was stacked against him, but he just knuckled down and kept at it. Even in the final laps when he was unlikely to score points, he kept a cool head and managed to fight to P9 with the bonus point (a small but significant victory).

 

I never said he under-performed, just that his strength in qualifying is greater than in the race (so far). I haven't seen evidence that it is a weakness as with Bottas. 

Another similarity with Bottas is how unlucky they both are. Hoovering up drain covers, punctures etc... They are kind of people you don't want to get in a lift with. 

[butterfly bob]

2 hours ago, PepeLePew said:

What an excellent race. Everyone knew that Russell was good but now we know he is exceptional. Did almost exactly what Verstappen did in his first race for a top team. Handled the pressure like a pro and took on a years worth of Merc bad luck in one race.

I think Bottas is a very good peddler but he has been worn down by 4 years against the goat. Rosberg left the sport in similar vein. I doubt Merc will move Bottas aside for Russell but I think they should as he's clearly lost his edge.

Bottas is a better driver than he was 2 years ago. I'd still like to see him moved on. Russell is a better prospect.

[kimternet]

11 hours ago, butterfly bob said:

I never said he under-performed, just that his strength in qualifying is greater than in the race (so far). I haven't seen evidence that it is a weakness as with Bottas. 

Another similarity with Bottas is how unlucky they both are. Hoovering up drain covers, punctures etc... They are kind of people you don't want to get in a lift with. 

Russell's race day performance has actually been very consistent with his qualification perfomance. I think the reason it looks as though he doesn't perform as well on race day is that the lower end drivers can stand out more during quali, whereas on race day focus is heavily scewed towards the top end.

Just checking the stats, pre last weekend, Russell's Quali average is 14.9 and race day 15.1. And that includes a DNF due to tech issues on race day 1. Whereas Bottas has averaged 2 for quali but an average finishing place of 5.5.

[jerry]

12 hours ago, butterfly bob said:

Bottas is a better driver than he was 2 years ago. I'd still like to see him moved on. Russell is a better prospect.

As long as Hamilton is there ... no chance ... 

[butterfly bob]

12 hours ago, kimternet said:

Russell's race day performance has actually been very consistent with his qualification perfomance. I think the reason it looks as though he doesn't perform as well on race day is that the lower end drivers can stand out more during quali, whereas on race day focus is heavily scewed towards the top end.

Just checking the stats, pre last weekend, Russell's Quali average is 14.9 and race day 15.1. And that includes a DNF due to tech issues on race day 1. Whereas Bottas has averaged 2 for quali but an average finishing place of 5.5.

He hasn't had a good yardstick but I still think Mr. Saturday is further ahead with his qualifying performances. It wouldn't surprise me if he could out qualify Perez. On the other hand I think Perez would have taken one of the opportunities which Russell let slip. I don't see any problem there though. Race day performance needs more F1 experience.

 

[PepeLePew]

On 08/12/2020 at 05:26, jerry said:

As long as Hamilton is there ... no chance ... 

Not true, Hamilton has never cared who his team mate is and he's had some of the best. It's one of the things that puts him above other 'greats' who have definitely stipulated who could and couldn't be in a team with them.

[vimto66]

On 07/12/2020 at 17:05, butterfly bob said:

Mercedes' own prediction before the race was to lap 26 cars -  some cars twice.

And some will insist the sport isnt skewed. 

[bangna]

On 07/12/2020 at 17:05, butterfly bob said:

Mercedes' own prediction before the race was to lap 26 cars -  some cars twice.

 

7 hours ago, vimto66 said:

And some will insist the sport isnt skewed. 

To be fair, the short circuit is scheduled for 87 laps.

[kane666]

On 11/12/2020 at 02:50, PepeLePew said:

Not true, Hamilton has never cared who his team mate is and he's had some of the best. It's one of the things that puts him above other 'greats' who have definitely stipulated who could and couldn't be in a team with them.

Exactly! This is why Mercedes only ever put the best of the best with Hamilton to spur him on to even greater heights! They never go for the perfect #2 wingman who is clearly not on Hamiltons level and just toes the line year in year out in a car that is vastly superior to the rest of the field.

[PepeLePew]

15 hours ago, vimto66 said:

And some will insist the sport isnt skewed. 

 

And some will insist on not understanding how the sport works and advertising that to the world.

 

6 hours ago, kane666 said:

Exactly! This is why Mercedes only ever put the best of the best with Hamilton to spur him on to even greater heights! They never go for the perfect #2 wingman who is clearly not on Hamiltons level and just toes the line year in year out in a car that is vastly superior to the rest of the field.

You either insist on inferior team mates or accept whoever the team puts in. Hamilton is in the 2nd camp even though he has reached such a level that he could stipulate if he was the type to want to do so.

It's difficult to criticise Merc for ensuring their continued dominance though. They have the perfect number 2 driver in Bottas, why change?

[Hallmark]

4 minutes ago, kane666 said:

Jeez I thought it was nice to be nice? Belittle people who disagree with you?

It is likely you have as much inside knowledge of Mercedes and Hamiltons contract as me -  none. Hamilton is just as likely (lets face it, probably more likely) to have complete control over who they pick as a teammate as no control. We will never know. However their choice of teammate after Rosberg speaks volumes.

Disagree with you on that bit as Rosberg dropped them in it by quitting as soon as he won the title and Merc had to then find a driver pretty damn quick and it cost them some free engines to get Bottass out of Williams.

[kane666]

2 minutes ago, Hallmark said:

Disagree with you on that bit as Rosberg dropped them in it by quitting as soon as he won the title and Merc had to then find a driver pretty damn quick and it cost them some free engines to get Bottass out of Williams.

But don't forget they have kept him ever since, when they have had opportunities to sign drivers far better than Bottas.

[Hallmark]

1 hour ago, kane666 said:

But don't forget they have kept him ever since, when they have had opportunities to sign drivers far better than Bottas.

Perfect No 2 driver, he's never going to challenge Hamilton for the title and I'm pretty sure Hamilton is more than happy to have him there, think Schumacher / Barrichello, perfect combination. I'm not saying I agree with it and I'm not a fan of Hamilton at all but I'm sure if he told Toto he wants Bottas there, then there he will stay.

[butterfly bob]

8 hours ago, PepeLePew said:

It's difficult to criticise Merc for ensuring their continued dominance though. They have the perfect number 2 driver in Bottas, why change?

After Hamilton v Rosberg Mercedes look like they prefer having a clearly weaker no. 2 driver instead of two no. 1 drivers. He has never been strong enough to earn more than a 1 year contract. Some years he was so weak it was surprising they kept him on. 

Lewis doesn't have that many years left in him so they need to start thinking about bringing in a better driver before he goes. Bottas isn't good enough to be the lead driver. He has lost over a season to slower cars twice before. This year the Mercedes is the most dominant it has been in his time there. Max still probably would have beaten him if he wasn't so much more unlucky.

Edited December 13, 2020 by butterfly bob

[PepeLePew]

When team mate clauses are there it is virtually impossible to hide them. Look at the classic, Schumacher. I've lost count of the amount of times he got the team to move his team mate out of the way. Also when a driver has had to sign a #2 contract he is usually pretty quick to tell the world once he is out of it (all of Schumachers team mates have done just that). Both Toto and Lewis have stated there is no such team mate clause. 

Russia 2018 is the only time I can remember Bottas being told to make way (Bottas finished 5th that year, Vettel 2nd) and it didn't sit well with Lewis or anyone. “It is definitely a win on my list of wins that I am least proud of,” he said. “The strangest day I can remember in my career. I want to win the right way. As racing drivers we exist to win; if you tell us we can’t, it is like you are taking our life away. I would never wish it on someone else and I would never ask for it ever. I made sure in a meeting that they knew this is not how I want to win.”

Whilst on the subject lets mention Hungary 2017 when Bottas moved over to let Lewis attack the Ferraris. After being unable to do so he let Bottas repass and take 3rd place despite Max being dangerously close and Merc having radio issues on the day. He had a lot of excuses not to do so had he wanted. Here's what he said about it. "The mind is more cut-throat and 'every point counts and this is do or die'. But my heart tells me the right thing to do is let him by," Hamilton admitted. "I want to win the championship the right way."

Merc want to win both trophies. Is the best way to do that to put someone in the team that will lead to taking points off each other and possible crashes, Intra team arguments and general discord? 

 

[PepeLePew]

On 13/12/2020 at 09:00, kane666 said:

But don't forget they have kept him ever since, when they have had opportunities to sign drivers far better than Bottas.

Why would they? If you were Toto and your 2 drivers were easily wrapping up both titles would you think 'Hmmm, how can I spend a whole lot more money and find a driver that can rattle Lewis and unsettle the harmony we have created?'

Red Bull on the other hand are in exactly the position of needing a better 2nd driver. Ditto Ferrari. Now if you have a clear lead driver but need a new #2 you go for the best available and if he happens to beat your incumbent and become a new leader, happy days. 

[bangna]

1 hour ago, PepeLePew said:

Why would they? If you were Toto and your 2 drivers were easily wrapping up both titles would you think 'Hmmm, how can I spend a whole lot more money and find a driver that can rattle Lewis and unsettle the harmony we have created?'

Red Bull on the other hand are in exactly the position of needing a better 2nd driver. Ditto Ferrari. Now if you have a clear lead driver but need a new #2 you go for the best available and if he happens to beat your incumbent and become a new leader, happy days. 

At the risk of being controversial, Ferrari had a great 'second' driver for 2020, it was the 'first' driver who lacked results, 98 pts v 33 pts.

[PepeLePew]

6 hours ago, bangna said:

At the risk of being controversial, Ferrari had a great 'second' driver for 2020, it was the 'first' driver who lacked results, 98 pts v 33 pts.

In 2019 Leclerc joined as 2nd driver, in 2020 he was promoted to lead driver and the 2nd driver was sacked 

[butterfly bob]

I'm looking forward to the change in driver pairings next year. Mixing it up will help show where people stand.

LeClerc v Sainz : I don't think Sainz is in the very top group for talent or speed but he does work his way towards success well. I expect Leclerc to be clear of him to begin with and then see Sainz claw his way back to some extent. He will be a solid point scorer if the car is good enough.

Ricciardo v Norris : Danny Ric is a step up from Sainz imho. I expect him to beat Lando on Saturdays and Sundays. It will be interesting to see how close he can get.

Vettel v Stroll : Surely an easy win for Seb unless he has another season like this one.

Verstappen v Perez : This is the rumour. Perez wasn't known for his qualifying but did a decent job this year. Some experts reckon Max is the fastest on the grid now. I think Max would give him a beating in qualifying but not as bad as he did to Albon/Gasly.

Alonso v Ocon : If Ocon doesn't get close to a known team mate destroyer he may end up out of F1.

As for Hamilton v Bottas I hope Sky stop pretending there is serious opposition there when the season starts. It holds so thin now. 

Perez said he had an offer for 2022. If he doesn't go to Red Bull after all it will be interesting to see who it is from. Williams is an obvious one. I wonder if he can do better and whether Renault or Mclaren would drop a young gun for him?

[bangna]

2 hours ago, PepeLePew said:

In 2019 Leclerc joined as 2nd driver, in 2020 he was promoted to lead driver and the 2nd driver was sacked 

I always assumed that as Leclerc had the yellow painted camera on top of the roll hoop that he was number two, that seems to be typical.

Just read on tinternet (so must be true 555) in December 2019 Mattia Binotto was quoted as saying "there will be no more number one" drivers at Ferrari in 2020.

For the coming season Charles Leclerc played down suggestions he would become Ferrari's number one driver when Carlos Sainz Jr arrives next year.

Can we agree he was definitely the better driver? in 2020