Why are indians disliked in pattaya?

[taylor1975]

You will be very welcomed in the honey massage places if thats your thing. One on soi honey and two on 2nd road near central marina shopping mall.

[little_me]

2 hours ago, Mat Cauthon said:

Yes, this is not ok to do in a country they are visiting - especially the posts I saw about them trying to barter in 7 elevens and such is very much troubling. But I would like to bring a point to your attention that even in india they do not barter everywhere and for everything. There are specific markets and such as well as street vendors where people barter - but I imagine that is not solely limited to India. In the malls and other shops, people shop as is expected of them and pay the bill. No idea why this sort of behavior is being shown in thailand, but nothing I can do about it except try to be a good example when I am there. 😄

In the US, and I'm sure much of Europe is similar, we don't negotiate or barter for anything.

Maybe for cars or houses, but there's a large segment of those industries trying to move away from that, cause people just don't really like it.

And I've met Thai ladies that don't like it either. Some that I've spent time with won't go to certain markets because of that. They expect prices posted to be price paid and are either going to pay that or move along without arguing.

P4P services, in Thailand, I understand there is still a lot of western guys expecting to bargain, but a lot (myself included) really just don't. I ask a price, I take it or leave it, I never argue or ask to pay something else.

[Mat Cauthon]

2 hours ago, taylor1975 said:

You will be very welcomed in the honey massage places if thats your thing. One on soi honey and two on 2nd road near central marina shopping mall.

Haven't tried soapy/nuru massages before so looking forward to the experience. But I am planning to do it in Bangkok during the return leg as I saw it mentioned here that the experience is much better in bangkok than pattaya, although more expensive. Would like to do both, but depends on how broke I am by the time I get back to bangkok 😄. Any recommendations on which experience is better?

 

[Mat Cauthon]

1 hour ago, little_me said:

P4P services, in Thailand, I understand there is still a lot of western guys expecting to bargain, but a lot (myself included) really just don't. I ask a price, I take it or leave it, I never argue or ask to pay something else.

I don't like negotiating either - If the TG tries to overcharge by too much, I will take it as not interested but if the price seems reasonable then go time. Might depend on how sober I am though..

[petehoax]

1 hour ago, little_me said:

In the US, and I'm sure much of Europe is similar, we don't negotiate or barter for anything.

that's only partially true.

in the majority of business situations in western countries it's completely normal to negotiate for any "large expense". if delta airlines buys new airplanes from boeing, they will spend a few months in negotiations. if you start a new job, it's normal to negotiate your renumeration package. if you buy or build a house (as you mention) it's completely normal (and absolutely necessary) to spend a ton of time negotiating. even (often) if you just want a handy-man to do a job that will take a few hours, you will need to haggle unless you want to pay 50% too much.
and in a lot of p4p situations in the west it's normal to negotiate (think of asian massage parlors in the US or street prositution in europe). it's all about the context.

and in a lot of southern european countries it's much more common to haggle (think of a market in turkey. if you buy a t-shirt for the first price that is offered you'll pay approximately 5x more than you "should"). 

and in thailand it's quite normal to negotiate with a street seller for example (but not for a food seller). or on the market. and so on. and in a p4p context it's very common as well. "1000 for short time, ok?" ; "no, i want 2000". "i can give you 1500, ok?" "ok". no one will bat an eye at this exchange. 

it's all about assimilating and knowing what is expected and how to behave... normally people get better with this over time if they travel more. Of course it's laughable to walk into every bar and ask for a discount for 3 beers. I completely agree. 

But i also had to laugh at the guy from the US who was complaining about "people not trying to assimilate if they visit another country". Americans are famous for lacking any kind of skills at that, exactly because many of them very rarely leave their own country and because they think the whole world should work exactly the same as it does "back home". They're even offended if people speak another language!  

[momo5]

1 hour ago, little_me said:

In the US, and I'm sure much of Europe is similar, we don't negotiate or barter for anything.

Maybe for cars or houses, but there's a large segment of those industries trying to move away from that, cause people just don't really like it.

And I've met Thai ladies that don't like it either. Some that I've spent time with won't go to certain markets because of that. They expect prices posted to be price paid and are either going to pay that or move along without arguing.

P4P services, in Thailand, I understand there is still a lot of western guys expecting to bargain, but a lot (myself included) really just don't. I ask a price, I take it or leave it, I never argue or ask to pay something else.

Negotiating and bargaining is still very active here.  I do agree that Americans generally don’t like to negotiate/bargain, especially on lower cost items, but for substantial purchase it makes sense.  Real estate.  Motor vehicles.  Boats.  Antiques and collectibles.  

My eldest son, an attorney, will accept services-in-kind for his legal help, such as car repair, lawn care and accounting. 

I negotiated the cost of a new roof and painting of my primary home.  I simply told the roofer that I liked that he wasn’t the most cost effective proposal and he gave me a discount which brought it to the lowest cost.  My painter, who I’ve used in the past, agreed to a discount if I agreed to schedule the job in between other jobs he had, which meant I had to accept the job being completed over a month rather than just a few days.  Gutter guy wanted to charge me for disposal of the old gutters, but when I told him I would dispose of the old gutters myself he agreed to dispose of them without extra charge (I knew he would sell them as scrap and makes money on it regardless).  These three discounts added up to nearly 20k, so not trivial to most, and took maybe a cumulative thirty minutes of genteel conversation to achieve.   
 

But I don’t negotiate at the dollar store or any retail establishment for that matter.  But for bigger ticket items, I’ll do what I can within reason.  
 

I also don’t bargain much for P4P.  For a freelancer, I’ll offer what I’m willing to pay and maybe meet her counteroffer if it’s not too far off.  At a GoGo it’s either accept/reject what she offers as her fee. But I’m not wasting my time or hers by quibbling over a few hundred bath.  Outside of renting a venue for an event, bargaining over drinks and food just seems a sure fire way of pissing off the establishment. 

[momo5]

20 minutes ago, Mat Cauthon said:

I don't like negotiating either - If the TG tries to overcharge by too much, I will take it as not interested but if the price seems reasonable then go time. Might depend on how sober I am though..

And more often than not I’ll get a message later that day or the next day that they’ll meet me for my originally offered price.  

[momo5]

7 minutes ago, petehoax said:

But i also had to laugh at the guy from the US who was complaining about "people not trying to assimilate if they visit another country". Americans are famous for lacking any kind of skills at that, exactly because many of them very rarely leave their own country and because they think the whole world should work exactly the same as it does "back home". They're even offended if people speak another language!  

So true.  I’m often embarrassed by the actions of my own countrymen.

A long time ago I was in a museum in Paris and this older American couple were getting agitated because they couldn’t understand the directions being given by the attendant.  They clearly knew no French and were being very rude and obnoxious.  I explained to them what the attendant was saying - the fuckers were rude to me too - and then made a callous comment about them to the attendant.  He laughed and responded his agreement in clear English and the look on the faces of the older couple was priceless.  
 

Same with morons getting upset and thinking that raising their voices and claiming to be an American will somehow clear up whatever predicament they find themselves in. 

[ChiFlyer]

I skimmed through some of this thread and thought I would offer up some observations from 20 years ago. IMO the type of tendencies that I am going to describe do not go away very quickly.

I am an American of European decent <-(White guy).

20 years ago I worked in India (Hyderabad) for the better part of a year. Although not related to the Thailand topic, I can say that my Indian teammates brought their A level effort to work every day. Although they were also condescending to any female team members and there were very few of those. I was the Tech Arc on a large IT project that took place with staffs being in North America and India. I had about 50 reports, about half in India.

One reason I took this assignment is that it enabled me to get away to Thailand from time to time. An Indian peer of mine wanted to see Pattaya, so I offered up that if he wanted to join me there on a trip, I would show him around. This was an intelligent successful man. He had created an IT startup in the US and then gotten it to the point that he sold it off. He had moved back to India because he wanted to raise his children at least in part in the country of their heritage. He was gracious as well, frequently having myself and the other American over to his house in a rather posh area.

Anyway, I had heard that Indians were not always treated well by the Thais. I cautioned my friend that the trip should be just me and him. He did not listen. He invited 4 of his buddies without telling me. So I meet up with him in Pattaya and he has the rest of the crew in tow. These were very successful men. Every one of them had a financial worth that probably exceeded mine by factors not mere percentages.

We were denied entrance at all of the more popular Gogos of that time (Happy, Electric Blue, Super Girl). Really quite embarrassing from my perspective.

I bought the crew dinner instead and said I was saddened by the racism that they had been subjected to. I meant it.

In the current day (I live in the Pattaya area now) I notice that the Indian guys that I see still travel in packs. I am pretty sure that the girls feel intimidated by that. Also, when I was working in India I occasionally heard intelligent well educated men making comments like "all Thai and Filipino women are sluts". The girls know how to read men's attitudes. They are professionals when it comes to that. Granted that was 20 years ago, but kitchen table education does not change quickly.

One last thing, would you Indian Guys please stop walking in the middle of the street? It is quite irritating. One of these days I am accidentally going to hit one of you and have to spend time filling out police reports.   

Edited March 17, 2023 by ChiFlyer

[Mat Cauthon]

35 minutes ago, momo5 said:

And more often than not I’ll get a message later that day or the next day that they’ll meet me for my originally offered price.  

In that case I will make sure to add them in line! 

[Mat Cauthon]

5 minutes ago, ChiFlyer said:

We were denied entrance at all of the more popular Gogos of that time (Happy, Electric Blue, Super Girl). Really quite embarrassing from my perspective.

Wow - I had no idea it was like this 20 years ago.

[ChiFlyer]

22 minutes ago, Mat Cauthon said:

Wow - I had no idea it was like this 20 years ago.

On one trip to Thailand, connecting through Chennai, there was a bad queue for the Bangkok leg. An Indian guy and myself were jostling for position in the queue. We both started laughing at how stupid we were both being and started to talk. It turned out the man was a brain surgeon. We became short term friends and met up in Bangkok. I should have stayed friends with him. Maybe I could have gotten a much needed brain operation.

I escorted him over to Rainbow 3 in Nana. He met a girl he really liked and had a great time taking her out dancing and what not. Actually the girl did not work at Rainbow 3, but was a friend of a girl I liked who did work there. My lady friend knew that her friend would probably like the brain surgeon and called her over. The brain surgeon was in fact a handsome man, unlike myself who was only called that. 😞

The brain surgeon went down to Pattaya a few days later and was treated as I described above. He sent me an email describing this. It must be even more difficult for a well educated man to be subjected to racist treatment of this nature (so said the White Guy).

My take on it, at least 20 years ago, an Indian guy was given a chance to show he has some money in Bangkok. Pattaya not so much.

Edited March 17, 2023 by ChiFlyer

[masterslayer169]

3 hours ago, taylor1975 said:

You will be very welcomed in the honey massage places if thats your thing. One on soi honey and two on 2nd road near central marina shopping mall.

Honey massage is built on Indian wallets. Quite literally lol. Happened to meet the owner of Honey massage in a secret bar that the owner does not advertise. He got me entire tab for a party of 5. 

His words: Indians made him a millionaire and he was happy to pay back 😅

From what I understand, a lot of the Indian group tours include honey massage as a part of the package. So they make a good amount of money. Also, some Indians dont know how to talk to girls in the bars. So honey is convenient. 

[momo5]

21 minutes ago, ChiFlyer said:

One last thing, would you Indian Guys please stop walking in the middle of the street? It is quite irritating. One of these days I am accidentally going to hit one of you and have to spend time filling out police reports.   

The walking doesn’t bother me so much - I can pace myself to match - it’s the stopping en masse in the middle of the street/sidewalk/etc that drives me fucking nuts.  And it’s not just the Indians - Arabs on Sukhumvit do this too and being behind a Chinese hoard is a real test of one’s patience.  
 

Agree about the general attitude toward women in Indian society.  A fellow student in graduate school very proudly introduced himself as a brahmin, to which my first response was ‘what the fuck is a Brahmin?’  After he explained it to me, I told him he’d best forget that bullshit here. There was another Indian graduate student, much darker and apparently from a much lower caste, whom he had complete disregard for despite the fact that this guy was a standout PhD candidate.  There was an American woman also in the program, who has since attained international acclaim in her field, for which this Brahmin felt shouldn’t be in the program despite her aptitude because she was a woman and an ugly one at that (I’d have to agree that she was ugly, the kind of female with more male characteristics - but smart as a tack, friendly and kind).  It was his constant harassment and disparagement of these two students that ultimately got him ejected from the program and his student visa cancelled.  No idea what happened to him after that.  
 

He also felt it was beneath him to clean up after himself - he ended up getting kicked out of university housing due to his complete lack of hygiene.  

I will add that I work with and have worked with numerous Indian colleagues who are neat, clean and respectful - though attitude towards women does seem to be less dignified than what we are used to in the West. 

[neandertal13]

For my point of view Indians are disliked in pattaya for many reasons:

1- their culture is really far away from Thai culture and western culture.

2- they often come as a group like team building session trip with their firms. 
 

3- they have for the majority maybe not as money as others. That is probably untrue for some but for the big groups maybe yes. 
 

4-they have maybe for some an approach to women not as respectful as we can see with westerners. We all see the huge problems they had in India with  rapists. That not mean they are like that. 
 

5-they do not mix with other foreigners. That is not the case with English, Americans etc…

that reasons maybe explain why they have not so good reputation. Even if it is not reasons but just stereotypical 

[BlooBell]

Go and stay in the Sunbeam hotel on Soi 8 for just one night and you will be enlightened. 

[Bonkabit]

1 hour ago, BlooBell said:

>Go and stay in the Sunbeam hotel on Soi 8 for just one night and you will be enlightened. 

This hotel on Naklua Road in North Pattaya has a large Indian clientele. I have never stayed there and doubt if I ever will.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Bonkabit

[Whalley]

7 hours ago, momo5 said:

Agree about the general attitude toward women in Indian society.  A fellow student in graduate school very proudly introduced himself as a brahmin, to which my first response was ‘what the fuck is a Brahmin?’  After he explained it to me, I told him he’d best forget that bullshit here.

Good that you set him straight.  

Not surprising that a non-Christian Hindu holy man looking for brownie points in the Bible belt of the USA would be perceived as bullshit.

.

 

 

 

[Tchiowa]

Possibly the smell?

rogan josh mixed in with unwashed armpits can be off putting in close proximity 

[Billy Shears]

No matter your nationality, the very best any of us foreigners can hope for in Thailand is to be tolerated by the Thai's. The vast majority don't want foreigners in their country, they only put up with us for the money we bring. 

So, if there is blatant racism towards one group or another, keep in mind that all foreigners that have their eyes open, feel it as well, your not alone.

[snowbird]

High priced drinks in Indian bars does not = they are all big spenders.

Imagine a typical bar business model, I'll make up numbers as I don't know them exactly so I'll base it off what I've seen and do.

An average customer goes in the bar, sits and orders 4 drinks in 1.5 hours. He also buys an average of 1 Ladies drink (yes we have gone way over that but let's stick to averages). One of 3 customers pays a barfine and tips the girl enough to keep her income to her expectations.  The bar can keep the drinks and barfines priced to get enough profit and pay the bills and the staff.

Customers that don't want to pay anything but take up seats or standing room do not pay the bar's bills.

An Indian bar business model.

Have staff that force everyone to buy an overpriced drink to meet the daily drink sales income. Let them stand around unlimited hours until there is no place to sit or stand. One might pay a barfine so that should also be over priced to keep the girl's daily income up.

Both business models work but are not interchangeable for a bars business income and customer's preferences.

I for example walk right out of a bar without seating or people standing and crowding me and my view of the girls. I will pay more in drinks and LDs and barfines to finance some room to breath.

 

[Greg_B]

33 minutes ago, WhiteThai said:

No matter your nationality, the very best any of us foreigners can hope for in Thailand is to be tolerated by the Thai's. The vast majority don't want foreigners in their country, they only put up with us for the money we bring. 

So, if there is blatant racism towards one group or another, keep in mind that all foreigners that have their eyes open, feel it as well, your not alone.

I was thinking along the same line as you

Well done and an eloquent statement...

[momo5]

1 hour ago, Whalley said:

Good that you set him straight.  

Not surprising that a non-Christian Hindu holy man looking for brownie points in the Bible belt of the USA would be perceived as bullshit.

.

 

 

 

Well, that was in New England where more sensible thinking prevails, but yes, he had a very outdated view of society.  

[Hissého]

1 hour ago, WhiteThai said:

No matter your nationality, the very best any of us foreigners can hope for in Thailand is to be tolerated by the Thai's. The vast majority don't want foreigners in their country, they only put up with us for the money we bring. 

So, if there is blatant racism towards one group or another, keep in mind that all foreigners that have their eyes open, feel it as well, your not alone.

I have lived in Thailand for 12 years and I totally disagree with this statement. Thais are not racist towards Westerners, better yet they overestimate us.

For example, my excellent surgeon in Chonburi (government hospital) asks me for my opinion on a delicate operation. I had to insist, stating that I knew nothing about medicine and that I trusted her completely. "as you would for your Daddy" I had to insist.

Remain courteous, smiling, modest, not lessons givers and calm, all the doors of welcome will be open.
Same for Japanese, Koreans and Chinese.

On the other hand, they generally avoid exchanges with blacks, Arabs and Indians, probably for lack of empathy and fear of the unknown.

[Greg_B]

8 minutes ago, Hissého said:

I have lived in Thailand for 12 years and I totally disagree with this statement. Thais are not racist towards Westerners, better yet they overestimate us.

 

I will respectfully disagree as my ex-GF had an Uncle who despised farangs.

To a point where he would only speak Thai (he was fluent in English) and demanded I learn to speak, read and write in Thai. 

I refused to participate in his mind games and ignored him.