Lawyer + General questions about buying a Condo

[mas188]

3 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

4 hours ago, supergeil said:

I would caution about making that the lesson.
Took me about a year to find the perfect condo myself. I did miss out on two candidates because I was too slow, and I am so so happy that I hesitated.

I was kinda joking, he didn't like the advice he was getting

I liked some advices, actually some were really helpful.. some others made me laugh, some others watch the sky and repeatly say "why? why?"!! 

ahahah

[mas188]

15 hours ago, usexpat46 said:

That's too bad, the percentage can change without even a sale. i.e. falang owner dies and unit is willed to Thai wife.

I didn't think in this way... interesting... thanks.. i will double check in case it happens again a similar situation

[mas188]

4 hours ago, supergeil said:

I would caution about making that the lesson.

Took me about a year to find the perfect condo myself. I did miss out on two candidates because I was too slow, and I am so so happy that I hesitated.

Well what some people don't get, is that i DON'T NEED to buy a condo... i don't have a thai wife to take care... a business in here or whatever else.. i want... in the right location.. with the price i feel right to pay in Thailand (Pattaya)

It will be when it will be.. i made some good steps, i know more than before and i will keep my eyes open..

I wasn't to slow at all, he just got a better offer and probably used mine to get more money from someone else... i don't know and i don't honestly care... it's business...

[KittenKong]

On 30/10/2017 at 09:03, supergeil said:

Section 17/1 of the condo act explicitly talks about dedicated space for trade and there are many condominiums with mixed residential and commercial activity (without separate juristic structures), so your blanket statement that “condo buildings are by definition residential” is just not true, just like there is no blanket ban on all forms of short term rental (as previously indicated by that questionable sign).

Commercial activities in recognised commercial areas of a condominium are not run by the condominium as it has no power to operate businesses. Such businesses are operated by the owners of the units, or tenants thereof, and should be run entirely separately from the condo. The finances and juristic structure are notably entirely separate. Sometimes a building may lease out common areas for business use (ie pool houses etc) but the activity of the juristic person should be limited to receiving rent. All condos are basically residential but some may have limited areas defined as being for commercial use, as clearly specified in the condo act. Such areas can only be modified by a majority vote of all co-owners.

So Condotels by definition should have both separate juristic structures and also separate physical structures in order to comply with the condo act which requires that entrances must be separate and that any business use should not impact at all on residents. Proper Condotels like Movenpick (and the currently inactive Waterfront) obey the law to the letter in this respect. You might like to visit one of them to see how it works. Some dodgy ones (look along Jomtien Beach Road for examples) dont, and I notice that they are quite careful not to advertise what they do. But disobeying the law does not make the law obsolete.

[Larssonn]

i had a meeting with magna carta today about another issue and as i dont know much about company ownership i simply asked them alot and the amount of totally clueless people are insane .... or the lawyer have no idea as both stories simply doesnt match at all .

 

then to all who recomend magna carta all over , they charge 200.000 thb for a civil case wich another normal thai lawyer charges 30,000 for so they are not for any average normal day case

 

for company setup they charge 35.000 upto 1 mthb value and an additional 10,000 per 1 mthb increase .

 

even after the information provided by the lawyer i would not go by company ownership , not due its illigal craptalk but the fact its way too much work for way too little profit from foreign ownership ...... that combined with the insanely big market its simply not needed .

 

the biggest lawbreak by company setup must be the thai people signing it .......

[Edge]

20 minutes ago, Larssonn said:

....................
...................then to all who recomend magna carta all over , they charge 200.000 thb for a civil case wich another normal thai lawyer charges 30,000 for so they are not for any average normal day case..........................

So tell us about the Civil Case it sounds more interesting......sounds an extremely big difference in cost so are you comparing like with like and hoping to win either way?   

BTW the forum auto double spaces with one click now.

[Larssonn]

56 minutes ago, Edge said:

So tell us about the Civil Case it sounds more interesting......sounds an extremely big difference in cost so are you comparing like with like and hoping to win either way?   

BTW the forum auto double spaces with one click now.

they charge 200.000 for ANY civil case he told me .

[Insomniac]

30 minutes ago, Larssonn said:

they charge 200.000 for ANY civil case he told me .

200,000 baht? I generally work free for farangs, but the Thai Lawyer employed to present the case, I have researched, will normally get 60,000 for a Civil Case.

[Geordie59]

2 hours ago, Larssonn said:

i had a meeting with magna carta today about another issue and as i dont know much about company ownership i simply asked them alot and the amount of totally clueless people are insane .... or the lawyer have no idea as both stories simply doesnt match at all .

 

then to all who recomend magna carta all over , they charge 200.000 thb for a civil case wich another normal thai lawyer charges 30,000 for so they are not for any average normal day case

 

for company setup they charge 35.000 upto 1 mthb value and an additional 10,000 per 1 mthb increase .

 

even after the information provided by the lawyer i would not go by company ownership , not due its illigal craptalk but the fact its way too much work for way too little profit from foreign ownership ...... that combined with the insanely big market its simply not needed .

 

the biggest lawbreak by company setup must be the thai people signing it .......

I was initially using Magna Carta when I was looking to buy a condo. I know they get plenty of recommendations on here and elsewhere but I was not impressed. Having been around Pattaya for 30 years I know a thing or 2 and I got fed up being treated like a dummy.

I did by a condo, in a company name, and used a different legal practice run by Thais for all the checks, formalities and legal stuff without the constant sales pitch as to how good they were.

[Larssonn]

1 minute ago, Geordie59 said:

I was initially using Magna Carta when I was looking to buy a condo. I know they get plenty of recommendations on here and elsewhere but I was not impressed. Having been around Pattaya for 30 years I know a thing or 2 and I got fed up being treated like a dummy.

I did by a condo, in a company name, and used a different legal practice run by Thais for all the checks, formalities and legal stuff without the constant sales pitch as to how good they were.

i have to agree , not impressed at all by magna carta .

answer very late to mails/enquiries , lazy staff , most staff have mobiles in hand totally unintrested , and most of all insane pricings .

would never use them personally when there are so much better valued options around .

[Edge]

56 minutes ago, Larssonn said:

they charge 200.000 for ANY civil case he told me .

I don't doubt the number because I was given the same number by another (Thai) lawyer as the amount I would have to front to commence a civil case.

What I would wonder about is what you would get for only 30k.

[Edge]

2 hours ago, Geordie59 said:

I was initially using Magna Carta when I was looking to buy a condo. I know they get plenty of recommendations on here and elsewhere but I was not impressed. Having been around Pattaya for 30 years I know a thing or 2 and I got fed up being treated like a dummy.

I did by a condo, in a company name, and used a different legal practice run by Thais for all the checks, formalities and legal stuff without the constant sales pitch as to how good they were.

If you've been here 30 years then I don't doubt that you know enough to find a Thai firm you trust....I got stiffed by a very reputable one, but that was a Thai rak Thai situation.

What I see across the board is that the posters who recommend Magna Carta are people who have used them, whereas the knockers usually have not.
If someone asked who is the cheapest Lawyer in town they'd probably get different advice.   

[KittenKong]

9 hours ago, Larssonn said:

they charge 200.000 for ANY civil case he told me .

I may be mistaken but I think that Magna Carta was the law firm that got drafted into a Pattaya 103 talk-show back when the Waterfront announced its "restructuring". At that time the lawyer in question (from whichever law firm he was) indicated that they would charge 200kB for submitting creditor notification to the courts on behalf anyone who had bought off-plan in that building. That procedure was needed to avoid losing even the status of unsecured creditor.

At the time I thought that 200kB seemed expensive for what they were going to do, which basically just amounted to completing and submitting some documents.

My personal opinion of lawyers everywhere is that they are expensive and bad news, and should be avoided whenever possible. In Thailand I would apply that advice in spades.

I consider myself both lucky and smart to have completely avoided lawyers and courts in my 60+ years on the planet, apart from instances like conveyancing in the UK, and notarizing in Europe, which is billed on a set scale anyway and does not involve courts at all.

[JAI DEE MAK]

43 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

I may be mistaken but I think that Magna Carta was the law firm that got drafted into a Pattaya 103 talk-show back when the Waterfront announced its "restructuring". At that time the lawyer in question (from whichever law firm he was) indicated that they would charge 200kB for submitting creditor notification to the courts on behalf anyone who had bought off-plan in that building. That procedure was needed to avoid losing even the status of unsecured creditor.

At the time I thought that 200kB seemed expensive for what they were going to do, which basically just amounted to completing and submitting some documents.

My personal opinion of lawyers everywhere is that they are expensive and bad news, and should be avoided whenever possible. In Thailand I would apply that advice in spades.

I consider myself both lucky and smart to have completely avoided lawyers and courts in my 60+ years on the planet, apart from instances like conveyancing in the UK, and notarizing in Europe, which is billed on a set scale anyway and does not involve courts at all.

My friend would be very in happy in giving 200k he has purchased 18 apartments in Waterfront and its the biggest fuck up he ever made so he told me .

JDM

[brutox]

Hey, mas188 .. I enjoyed following the posts on your thread.

I have been around the industry a pretty good bit, as private equity property investing (acquisition and development) was my career, much of which has been in Asia, and a goodly dose in Thailand .. there is always something more to learn, especially around the often unnavigable Thai shoals.

mas188, while you did not execute on this particular property, I hope this was for you an instructive sea trial .. regulars here roll their eyes, as they know that I can drone on and on about the subject, but it is already pretty well-covered by the resident expats (an important distinction -- see below) .. still, a few finer points:

• You benefit from the experience of a handful of resident expats whose posts I follow and judgements I respect .. davidge, scubascuba3, Edge, Gnorman, JAI DEE MAK, a few others .. their forewarnings are pretty consistent .. you will do well to weigh carefully their advice.
• Guys doing touch-and-goes here (regardless for how many years), armchair Thai enthusiasts in the comfort of their drawing rooms (or, basements), and guys who have resided here full time for only the Cinderella years (less than three years) have no place at this table.
• Do not underestimate what the Thai leadership is capable of doing at the expense of expats .. they give precious little to wide swaths of the Thai population .. they give a rat's ass about the farang .. living in their bubbles, the local farang grossly overstate the comparative impact foreigners have on the property market.
• Nominee cut-out companies are illegal .. full stop .. 
• Thailand is a test if a man's character .. should you choose to discard the internal compass with which you were raised and adopt local practices, you will be inextricably bound to that choice .. as a farang (low in the food chain here), you might over time very well end up the target of blackmailers, extortionists, corrupt officials, unethical lawyers, backstabbers, etc.
• In a dispute rising over an illegal transaction, you will have no recourse .. not to the police, not to the courts .. and unless you have established a deep and abiding relationship with a Thai mentor who draws deep water (unreachable to most farang), there is no recourse to the Thai village justice system, which is still quite effective here .. and .. they .. all .. know .. that .. it can turn into open hunting season on the smartest, most worldly and experienced (yet, still hapless) farang.
• You might trust the Thai you designate to hold the golden share in a Thai nominee cut-out company, but you might not yet realize that most all Thais are controlled by others .. it is a culture of subservience .. this is a powerful, deeply-rooted, cultural value you will not understand, and might not even see, until you live here long enough and close enough to the Thai culture to get beneath the thin veneer that separates the perception of the Thai smiles from the reality of the Thai behaviors .. the person you trust might easily yield to his 'better' -- a person you might not even know .. even many of the Thais you have known for a long time, friends you believe are westernized, will surprise you .. they have me.
• This is deep water out here, mas188 .. unlike in the known, predictable shallow waters back home, the cost of failure here is commonly -- all of it.

I think I am not alone in these views.

Take your time to buy .. the Pattaya market has long been in oversupply  .. there will be other good deals, some of which you will miss .. be patient, there will be others.

Consider renting and living here for a year before you make the commitment .. you will know a lot more then, than you do now .. not just about in which Pattaya neighborhood you might want to live, but property transactions, the Pattaya expat lifestyle, and some of the less apparent peculiarities about Thai cultural behaviors.

Chok dee!

 

[KittenKong]

9 hours ago, JAI DEE MAK said:

My friend would be very in happy in giving 200k he has purchased 18 apartments in Waterfront and its the biggest fuck up he ever made so he told me .

I can understand that. However I think that the 200kB quoted was per unit. And as I mentioned that was only for filing the documents to register with the court that you were a creditor. You would still have all the hassle, suspense and eventual costs of whatever comes after in the "restructuring" which, to me, appeared to be more bankruptcy protection designed to help the developer than anything else.

Waterfront was a disaster both in its first incarnation and in its second.

[Geordie59]

13 hours ago, brutox said:

Consider renting and living here for a year before you make the commitment .. you will know a lot more then, than you do now .. not just about in which Pattaya neighborhood you might want to live, but property transactions, the Pattaya Expat lifestyle, and some of the less apparent peculiarities about Thai cultural behaviors.

That is very good advice.
I have been here for over half my life but still rented in the complex where I had decided I wanted to buy for 6 months. This gave me time to see if there were any issues with the building - maintenance, administration, noise in the area, neighbours etc etc. It also allowed me to know which units I wanted to buy (e.g. not the one that looks over open ground that will not be developed but has a few roosters on it) and gave me time for one of the right condos for me to come onto the market.

[Insomniac]

16 hours ago, brutox said:

Hey, mas188 .. I enjoyed following the posts on your thread.

I have been around the industry a pretty good bit, as private equity property investing (acquisition and development) was my career, much of which has been in Asia, and a goodly dose in Thailand .. there is always something more to learn, especially around the often unnavigable Thai shoals.

mas188, while you did not execute on this particular property, I hope this was for you an instructive sea trial .. regulars here roll their eyes, as they know that I can drone on and on about the subject, but it is already pretty well-covered by the resident expats (an important distinction -- see below) .. still, a few finer points:

• You benefit from the experience of a handful of resident expats whose posts I follow and judgements I respect .. davidge, scubascuba3, Edge, Gnorman, JAI DEE MAK, a few others .. their forewarnings are pretty consistent .. you will do well to weigh carefully their advice.
• Guys doing touch-and-goes here (regardless for how many years), armchair Thai enthusiasts in the comfort of their drawing rooms (or, basements), and guys who have resided here full time for only the Cinderella years (less than three years) have no place at this table.
• Do not underestimate what the Thai leadership is capable of doing at the expense of expats .. they give precious little to wide swaths of the Thai population .. they give a rat's ass about the farang .. living in their bubbles, the local farang grossly overstate the comparative impact foreigners have on the property market.
• Nominee cut-out companies are illegal .. full stop .. 
• Thailand is a test if a man's character .. should you choose to discard the internal compass with which you were raised and adopt local practices, you will be inextricably bound to that choice .. as a farang (low in the food chain here), you might over time very well end up the target of blackmailers, extortionists, corrupt officials, unethical lawyers, backstabbers, etc.
• In a dispute rising over an illegal transaction, you will have no recourse .. not to the police, not to the courts .. and unless you have established a deep and abiding relationship with a Thai mentor who draws deep water (unreachable to most farang), there is no recourse to the Thai village justice system, which is still quite effective here .. and .. they .. all .. know .. that .. it can turn into open hunting season on the smartest, most worldly and experienced (yet, still hapless) farang.
• You might trust the Thai you designate to hold the golden share in a Thai nominee cut-out company, but you might not yet realize that most all Thais are controlled by others .. it is a culture of subservience .. this is a powerful, deeply-rooted, cultural value you will not understand, and might not even see, until you live here long enough and close enough to the Thai culture to get beneath the thin veneer that separates the perception of the Thai smiles from the reality of the Thai behaviors .. the person you trust might easily yield to his 'better' -- a person you might not even know .. even many of the Thais you have known for a long time, friends you believe are westernized, will surprise you .. they have me.
• This is deep water out here, mas188 .. unlike in the known, predictable shallow waters back home, the cost of failure here is commonly -- all of it.

I think I am not alone in these views.

Take your time to buy .. the Pattaya market has long been in oversupply  .. there will be other good deals, some of which you will miss .. be patient, there will be others.

Consider renting and living here for a year before you make the commitment .. you will know a lot more then, than you do now .. not just about in which Pattaya neighborhood you might want to live, but property transactions, the Pattaya Expat lifestyle, and some of the less apparent peculiarities about Thai cultural behaviors.

Chok dee!

 

Interesting post. 50% of which I agree with and 50% I do not understand. Even after being in property law for 42 years in England & Wales and Thailand your conclusions regarding "deep water", blackmailers,etc. has not been my experience. Farangs, in my experience are treated as well as Thais in the Thai Judicial System for many years now. You seem to be thinking of times gone by. It appears to be a common theme on many websites.

[Edge]

When I registered a 30 Year Lease on the Land I paid for in the Ex's name, I also paid 15k for a well respected Thai Lawyer to draw up an agreement stipulating the terms of the Lease.....about 6 pages all signed and stamped by all parties.

On the day of registration said Lawyer kindly suggested that his Clerk could go down to the Land Office for me, while I sat in his nice AC office drinking coffee.
When he returned, he showed me that a Lease had indeed been registered in my name on the Chanote.

It was only later that I discovered that my 15k Lease Agreement never made it to the Land Office and a simple Life only Lease had been registered instead.
You can guess and surmise as you like (I won't bore you with further detail) but I remain certain that the Ex was not the instigator of the deception, but that it was a case of Thai rak Thai.

I asked another Thai Lawyer if there was not the equivalent of the UK Law Society and he said that in his opinion I had clear grounds for Court action  but that I would have to try to get a Bangkok Lawyer to act for me as a Pattaya one would not.
Then he looked up the Lawyer concerned and found that he had a Bangkok office as well and his opinion was that I had no chance.

A relatively minor issue, but that was the 'deep water' I found myself in if that's the sort of thing @brutox meant.

[Insomniac]

3 hours ago, Edge said:

When I registered a 30 Year Lease on the Land I paid for in the Ex's name, I also paid 15k for a well respected Thai Lawyer to draw up an agreement stipulating the terms of the Lease.....about 6 pages all signed and stamped by all parties.

On the day of registration said Lawyer kindly suggested that his Clerk could go down to the Land Office for me, while I sat in his nice AC office drinking coffee.
When he returned, he showed me that a Lease had indeed been registered in my name on the Chanote.

It was only later that I discovered that my 15k Lease Agreement never made it to the Land Office and a simple Life only Lease had been registered instead.
You can guess and surmise as you like (I won't bore you with further detail) but I remain certain that the Ex was not the instigator of the deception, but that it was a case of Thai rak Thai.

I asked another Thai Lawyer if there was not the equivalent of the UK Law Society and he said that in his opinion I had clear grounds for Court action  but that I would have to try to get a Bangkok Lawyer to act for me as a Pattaya one would not.
Then he looked up the Lawyer concerned and found that he had a Bangkok office as well and his opinion was that I had no chance.

A relatively minor issue, but that was the 'deep water' I found myself in if that's the sort of thing @brutox meant.

Thai Law Society more of a joke than UK Law Society. They are simply Unions for Lawyers who are incompetent. Unlikely to sue a Thai Lawyer and win. Although I have taken many a UK lawyer to Court and won.

[Edge]

1 minute ago, Insomniac said:

Thai Law Society more of a joke than UK Law Society. They are simply Unions for Lawyers who are incompetent. Unlikely to sue a Thai Lawyer and win. Although I have taken many a UK lawyer to Court and won.

Well at least the second Thai Lawyer advised me correctly, but aren't you acknowledging the 'deep waters' brutox spoke of, or did I misunderstand?

[Insomniac]

7 minutes ago, Edge said:

Well at least the second Thai Lawyer advised me correctly, but aren't you acknowledging the 'deep waters' brutox spoke of, or did I misunderstand?

"Deep Waters" only exist where people go further than their safety region. Good advice is difficult to find in Thailand as law qualifications are much more easy to achieve than in western law schools/uni. Thailand still holds onto The Lawyer Act which prevents foreigners from being lawyers in Thailand. Based on the fact that only the wealthy in Thailand were lawyers previously. My main point was that you can still win outside the Thai Lawyer System if you are determined. It is not all corrupt! My Court Cases are straight forward in that you can convince a Judge based on knowledge of the Civil Code. Lacking some times in Thai Lawyers.

[brutox]

11 hours ago, Insomniac said:

"Deep Waters" only exist where people go further than their safety region...

.. My main point was that you can still win outside the Thai Lawyer System if you are determined. It is not all corrupt!

 

I hear you, Insomniac, I hear you.

I have been in Thai courts, as plaintiff and defendant .. civil claims (commercial fraud, contract breach, bankruptcy and foreclosure) and criminal claims (defamation, blackmail, forgery), and have enjoyed successes where we chose to go legal.

As you cite, competent, honest legal counsel is essential .. finding that here is arduous .. when you do find them, they are pearls .. without a competent legal advocate, nothing good might come of even the soundest of claims.

We/I have been represented by the Thai offices of bonafide international law firms (White & Case, Baker McKenzie .. not the 'dress-up and pretend to be international' shops) .. and, I have a couple of independent attorneys in my resource file who are gold .. they are in my experience quite rare.

With local, local representation, I rather doubt we would have enjoyed successes in the Thai courts .. compounded by the lowly local business practices, the pool of legal talent here is pretty crappy.

As in China, where you file is just as important .. we lost a spurious claim against us in the Chonburi's Court of First Instance, which was easily reversed in the Bangkok Court of Appeals .. both appeared as summary judgements .. go figure .. the Chonburi claim was led by a popular former Chonburi judge, where his influence over his former junior judges was apparent .. when appeal was moved to Bangkok, he had no such influence and the law was properly applied.

I have had success in Thai courts, but I have been represented by very good counsel and litigated in non-provincial courts where the informal village justice system remains active.

I agree with you that it is not all corrupt, but significant risks exist .. outside of certain jurisdictions, farang should have no doubt that much of Thai jurisprudence remains 'deep waters' .. your legal counsel and where you litigate is as equally important as your legal position .. ignoring these two important factors, justice is in my experience unlikely to be met out blindly on the basis of the law.

Thai jurisprudence is crazy stuff, men .. the indelible image burned into my mind was while awaiting a hearing in a Chonburi courtroom (cir. 2005) .. seated in the gallery, respectfully dressed in my suit and tie .. sitting across from me was a weathered and worn prai (some poor, low-class farmer or fisherman) in leg irons .. him here for murder .. us for commercial claims .. same panel of judges.

Thai justice is imperfect, but it is still formative, with a long way yet to evolve .. this is why many Thais avoid Thai courts like the plague and prefer to negotiate settlements through traditional, informal Thai village justice.

 

[Insomniac]

10 hours ago, brutox said:

I hear you, Insomniac, I hear you.

I have been in Thai courts, as plaintiff and defendant .. civil claims (commercial fraud, contract breach, bankruptcy and foreclosure) and criminal claims (defamation, blackmail, forgery), and have enjoyed successes where we chose to go legal.

As you cite, competent, honest legal counsel is essential .. finding that here is arduous .. when you do find them, they are pearls .. without a competent legal advocate, nothing good might come of even the soundest of claims.

We/I have been represented by the Thai offices of bonafide international law firms (White & Case, Baker McKenzie .. not the 'dress-up and pretend to be international' shops) .. and, I have a couple of independent attorneys in my resource file who are gold .. they are in my experience quite rare.

With local, local representation, I rather doubt we would have enjoyed successes in the Thai courts .. compounded by the lowly local business practices, the pool of legal talent here is pretty crappy.

As in China, where you file is just as important .. we lost a spurious claim against us in the Chonburi's Court of First Instance, which was easily reversed in the Bangkok Court of Appeals .. both appeared as summary judgements .. go figure .. the Chonburi claim was led by a popular former Chonburi judge, where his influence over his former junior judges was apparent .. when appeal was moved to Bangkok, he had no such influence and the law was properly applied.

I have had success in Thai courts, but I have been represented by very good counsel and litigated in non-provincial courts where the informal village justice system remains active.

I agree with you that it is not all corrupt, but significant risks exist .. outside of certain jurisdictions, farang should have no doubt that much of Thai jurisprudence remains 'deep waters' .. your legal counsel and where you litigate is as equally important as your legal position .. ignoring these two important factors, justice is in my experience unlikely to be met out blindly on the basis of the law.

Thai jurisprudence is crazy stuff, men .. the indelible image burned into my mind was while awaiting a hearing in a Chonburi courtroom (cir. 2005) .. seated in the gallery, respectfully dressed in my suit and tie .. sitting across from me was a weathered and worn prai (some poor, low-class farmer or fisherman) in leg irons .. him here for murder .. us for commercial claims .. same panel of judges.

Thai justice is imperfect, but it is still formative, with a long way yet to evolve .. this is why many Thais avoid Thai courts like the plague and prefer to negotiate settlements through traditional, informal Thai village justice.

 

I agree. This is why 90% of Civil Cases are resolved in the waiting area of Thai Courts.Most lawyers do not really want to rely on Judge's verdict, especially in Provincial Courts. Besides especially when the person involved has no income and lives on Government land the Court can only take the TV, bed, fridge,etc.