Lawyer + General questions about buying a Condo

[usexpat46]

While laws and enforcement may change, I doubt that the buying of property would change as that would effect not only condos but all the homes and townhouses throughout LOS owned by individuals from numerous countries.

[mas188]

4 hours ago, Guiness said:

Davidge , you have done your best , he is not getting the message ! 

 

perhaps he is a  ..................troll ??

 

apologies if i am wrong ! 

A troll?? are you ok? 

I think forums are really helpful if people learn how to use it.

Your post is not respectful at all.

There is an topic... can you help? yes.. then comment and give your advice... no? get over it... 

I really don't get, are you guys that bored?

I'm here not for talking about visa.. i really know what am i doing... i'm asking advices about something else.  

[artie1234]

A man is gonna do what a man is gonna do.  PA Advice falls on deaf ears......again and again...... Cheers

[mas188]

3 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Have a look at the prices here. Current prices on Hipflat seem inflated. So although you think you are getting a good deal it maybe that the other asking prices are too high.

http://neothai.com/4115_thailand_pattaya_vn_residence_3.html

Interesting thanks... the offer i get i still way cheaper and the condo is fully furnished not just with the initial package...

Later today i will go to see units at the neighboar water park.. hopefully i will find something that i really like in a foreigner name that make me forget the VNresidence 3.. i used to stay at then VN3 for 3 months and the feeling was super nice

Are those prices based on what? The untis i saw on sell (company name) are way higher of price.. 

thanks

[mas188]

45 minutes ago, Edge said:

I can confirm that the extract from davidge's post quoted above is the part I received notice of in 2013, which resulted in having to change my two Thai shareholders and which ultimately persuaded me to exit the Thai company owned situation I'd been in for about 8 years.

Good morning.. can you pm (if you don't want put public) a bit more about this? Thanks

[supergeil]

11 hours ago, mas188 said:

What if the thai company has be made for well know people as i trust? I mean... maybe i'm saying something stupid and i'm sorry for it... if i have 3 thai friends (since 10 years, who actually live in USA that i full trust).. and i make this fake company instead as with strangers, with them... first, is it possible? and second, will make things safer?

If you know a Thai you trust, better to have them buy the condo for your money because then there is no grey zone (companies cannot exist solely to own a condo, it is not legal to use Thai nominees) and no yearly fees (auditing of your company etc.).

It is true, as someone pointed out, that if you buy in company name, you avoid paying transfer tax if you want to change owner, since technically you do not change owner, just change control of the company, however, the lawyer fees involved with changing the director of the company and the yearly fees for keeping the company running might be higher than the transfer tax and stamp duty.

Though a downside with company ownership related to transfer: The money you make from the sale cannot easily be taken out of Thailand. You will find many threads on this (and other) forums about people trying to get money out of Thailand. If you sell a condo in foreign name, you have proof that the money is from this sale, and since it was a condo in foreign name, the money had originally been brought in from abroad, so you are allowed to take them out again. Not so if someone paid you a few millions to “step down as director”.

 

[mas188]

5 minutes ago, supergeil said:

Though a downside with company ownership related to transfer: The money you make from the sale cannot easily be taken out of Thailand. You will find many threads on this (and other) forums about people trying to get money out of Thailand. If you sell a condo in foreign name, you have proof that the money is from this sale, and since it was a condo in foreign name, the money had originally been brought in from abroad, so you are allowed to take them out again. Not so if someone paid you a few millions to “step down as director”.

 

Thanks a lot... this is really helpful.

The adivce i got is to get the future payment in case a sell directly in my country account/online account, or by cash

[supergeil]

7 hours ago, davidge said:

It is a Tourist Visa. It is not to allow someone to stay in Thailand 9 months a year. It is for people who make regular short trips. 

Using it to stay in Thailand more-or-less full time is misusing it in the same way as people doing border runs misuse the 30-day Entry.

I think this is your interpretation. A tourist visa is for tourists. What the Thai authorities have been concerned about (my interpretation) is people misusing the visa waiver system to work here (which require a work permit).

This is why they started to crack down on people with too many visa waiver stamps and require them to instead get a multi-entry visa in their home country, where the Thai embassy/consulate will do a bit of vetting to judge whether or not you are actually going to Thailand as a tourist.

The requirements to get a multi-entry visa does differ in different countries, for example the letter from your employer is not universal, and this is likely because if the Thai embassy/consulate is fairly sure that you are actually going to Thailand as a tourist (because you are from a wealthy country), they don’t want to stop you.

If they didn’t want people to be here 6-9 months per year, they would change the METV rules. What they don’t want is people working here (without work permit), and that is why they introduced the extra vetting of tourists 1-2 years ago.

And I write this as someone who does stay here ~6 months/year and so does most other foreigners in my building, but none of them work here (though I switched to the Thai Elite visa this year to avoid the hassle of getting visa in advance and the extension at immigration plus border run).

[mas188]

19 minutes ago, supergeil said:

And I write this as someone who does stay here ~6 months/year and so does most other foreigners in my building, but none of them work here (though I switched to the Thai Elite Visa this year to avoid the hassle of getting Visa in advance and the extension at immigration plus border run).

I like to get out of here every 2 months...i would do it even if i don't have..i love traveling... pattaya is just my home base in asia...and i want to stop to leave mostly luggage in friends apartment and just have my own place.. i have been pretty much everywhere except south korea in asia, i don't usually exit for short time... never less then 2 weeks.. this year Philippines and vietnam twice.. i might get tired of thailand one day, i'm still young.. even if every year i like here more and more... 

sorry i went out of topic of a topic already out of contest ahahah  ;)

[JAI DEE MAK]

16 hours ago, davidge said:

Well, I’ll take your word for it 

A few people have come on here with similar questions when they were only looking for validation for a decision they’d, in fact, already made and just ignored anything else.

Just be aware you are taking more than one risk with this. 

1. Giving money without having either the condo chanote or the company transferred to your name.

UNTIL IT IS THE HOLDER CAN RACK UP BIG LOANS AND MAY HAVE MANY ALREADY.

2. Relying that signing something drawn up by a lawyer is some sort of guarantee. I know from personal experience that an agreement drawn up by a lawyer is no guarantee of anything in Thailand!

CORRECT AND IT COULD TAKE A LOT OF YOUR CASH AND UP TO 3 YEARS IN THE COURTS TO SUE THE LAWYER AND YOU MAY NOT WIN AT THE END.

3. Buying in company name when that is, strictly speaking, illegal in Thailand and could be enforced at any time the government chose.

CORRRECT.

It’s your decision and entirely up to you if you are willing to take the risk with your money.

Personally, I’d rather put my money on the favourite in the 3.30 at Ascot 

If you are determined to go ahead with this ( I personally strongly advice you not to) do not take his company open a new one and transfer the apartment to the new company.

I have friends who have taken over existing companies when buying property and have had them checked and transferred  by  lawyers only to have ( past unpaid tax bills ) presented to them to pay.

You have been given some very good advice from BMs you should consider it all.

Thais are well known to not pay condo apartment maint and tax charges some in one of my condos are over 200,000tb in the red.

You really need to do your home work on this deal I see big red flags all over it.

JDM

[GorGuy RIP]

6 minutes ago, JAI DEE MAK said:

 

You really need to do your home work on this deal I see big red flags all over it.

JDM

I would strongly advise you listen to JDM.

JDM knows the fuck ups I made in trying to invest in Thailand and being too trusting in other people and not knowing they did not have the same moral standards as me.

[supergeil]

 

38 minutes ago, JAI DEE MAK said:

Thais are well known to not pay condo apartment maint and tax charges some in one of my condos are over 200,000tb in the red.

In this case, I believe he is buying from a foreigner, but it’s a good point: When you buy a condo through the Land Office, the seller must obtain a certificate of no debt from the condominium, showing that they do not owe management fee or similar.

If you go through with the company purchase, you should insist on getting this certificate (the JPM of the condo would issue it regardless of whether or not it is an official sale).

As for buying from a foreigner: I have met several foreigners here without a moral compass, Thailand seems to attract some really bad apples.

And I would second the advice of opening a new company, so a prioritized list of what I think your options are:

1. Buy in foreign name
2. Buy in the name of a Thai you trust 100%
3. Start a company and transfer condo to that company
4. Take over the other person’s company.

On that list, I would strongly advise doing 1, but I have contemplated doing 2 myself.

Presently I would never touch option 3 or 4, but of course circumstances may change, as I could see myself wanting to build a house here.

Though were I to build a house here, I would probably still try to go for option 2 with a usefruct, and possibly have the Thai borrow against the land and give me the money (with me paying interests), so worst case I only lose the land appreciation profit when it is time to sell, and as my purchase would not be motivated by speculation, I would be willing to run that risk (I would anyway have a hard time selling the house for what I would probably spend on building it, as I would be motivated by having a nice home).

[Scuba+]

I would strongly advise you listen to JDM.
JDM knows the fuck ups I made in trying to invest in Thailand and being too trusting in other people and not knowing they did not have the same moral standards as me.

Tell us the story?

[Geordie59]

3 hours ago, supergeil said:

If you know a Thai you trust, better to have them buy the condo for your money because then there is no grey zone (companies cannot exist solely to own a condo, it is not legal to use Thai nominees) and no yearly fees (auditing of your company etc.).

It is true, as someone pointed out, that if you buy in company name, you avoid paying transfer tax if you want to change owner, since technically you do not change owner, just change control of the company, however, the lawyer fees involved with changing the director of the company and the yearly fees for keeping the company running might be higher than the transfer tax and stamp duty.

Though a downside with company ownership related to transfer: The money you make from the sale cannot easily be taken out of Thailand. You will find many threads on this (and other) forums about people trying to get money out of Thailand. If you sell a condo in foreign name, you have proof that the money is from this sale, and since it was a condo in foreign name, the money had originally been brought in from abroad, so you are allowed to take them out again. Not so if someone paid you a few millions to “step down as director”.

 

I have a condo in a company name and previously had a house in a company name for over 20 years. No issues with either property. I would have bought in my name or even a Thai name (my grown up kid) but wanted a particular condo for its position in the development and that just happened to be in a company name.

Current condo was around the THB 5 million mark. At the current cost of the annual audit it would be around 15-20 years before I will have paid out the same as the transfer taxes. The current cost for a foreign owned condo in my building is around 10% higher than one in a company name which in turn is 10% higher than one in a Thai name. Being in a company name means I can sell on to anyone who has the money and they will also not have to pay transfer taxes.

Why would you have an issue transferring money out of the country if I sell up? So long as you have the paperwork from the bank when you transferred the money into Thailand you can transfer it back out. I agree that without the proper paperwork from the bank you will have a problem.

On points raised by others.
Can you imagine what would happen to the property market and construction industry if the govt clamped down on properties owned in company names?
Buying in a foreign name is not always as safe as you might think. I know of 2 condos where the developer has oversold the foreign quota. I'm sure they are not the only 2.
Forming your own company to buy will result in transfer taxes being charged as it will have a new owner. They generally run at about 4.5-7% and are based on the land office valuation of the property, not the price you pay.
A decent lawyer will check there are no outstanding bills both with the condo and the company. That is after all what you are paying them for.
Some suggest using a Thai you trust. That is a very hard thing to find because if that persons circumstances change they will always look after Number 1 and that isn't you. You can apply that to any nationality, not just Thais. I use one of my Thai kids as the major shareholder in my company.

 

[Insomniac]

44 minutes ago, supergeil said:

 

In this case, I believe he is buying from a foreigner, but it’s a good point: When you buy a condo through the Land Office, the seller must obtain a certificate of no debt from the condominium, showing that they do not owe management fee or similar.

If you go through with the company purchase, you should insist on getting this certificate (the JPM of the condo would issue it regardless of whether or not it is an official sale).

As for buying from a foreigner: I have met several foreigners here without a moral compass, Thailand seems to attract some really bad apples.

And I would second the advice of opening a new company, so a prioritized list of what I think your options are:

1. Buy in foreign name
2. Buy in the name of a Thai you trust 100%
3. Start a company and transfer condo to that company
4. Take over the other person’s company.

On that list, I would strongly advise doing 1, but I have contemplated doing 2 myself.

Presently I would never touch option 3 or 4, but of course circumstances may change, as I could see myself wanting to build a house here.

Though were I to build a house here, I would probably still try to go for option 2 with a usefruct, and possibly have the Thai borrow against the land and give me the money (with me paying interests), so worst case I only lose the land appreciation profit when it is time to sell, and as my purchase would not be motivated by speculation, I would be willing to run that risk (I would anyway have a hard time selling the house for what I would probably spend on building it, as I would be motivated by having a nice home).

Unless you have studied Thai Law or have considered the options from an experienced Thai Lawyer, not a farang entrepreneur or consultant,then option 1 should be only choice. My opinion on usufructs are widely known in Thailand. Who could have a belief in a 2000 year old Roman Law. Superficies may be an alternative, but is again a Law originally written in Latin. They are not a right but up to the Land Officer in each area. It is lucky really that Thai Judges have little knowledge of Property Law.

[davidge]

10 hours ago, gmingot said:

you will be back !!!

 

[supergeil]

5 minutes ago, Geordie59 said:

The current cost for a foreign owned condo in my building is around 10% higher than one in a company name

If buying using a company was as “safe” as buying in foreign name the price should ideally be the same, so this price difference is basically the market’s assessment of the risk you run.

Sort of like if you buy a car, and the seller says he’ll give you a 10% discount if you forego the warranty: Some people would take that offer, and many would probably enjoy the car for many years without problems. Personally I would pay the full price and get the warranty

 

[supergeil]

13 minutes ago, Geordie59 said:

Can you imagine what would happen to the property market and construction industry if the govt clamped down on properties owned in company names?

Can you imagine what would happen to the GDP if the government of a country seized land owned by foreigners who ran successful businesses employing many locals? Actually, that has happened (not in Thailand though)…

I am not betting on a crackdown, I just don’t want to make predictions based on “logic” when it comes to a country that has gone from democracy to military junta in the last few years, are now imprisoning people for sharing BBC articles on Facebook, and despite tourism being a big part of Thailand’s economy, are very protective about keeping businesses, jobs, and land on Thai hands.

What would be the more likely scenario is that land/condos owned through an illegal setup would simply be confiscated and “given back to the Thais” in some populistic move.

Again, I am not betting on this outcome, but crazier things have happened…

[mas188]

5 hours ago, JAI DEE MAK said:

If you are determined to go ahead with this ( I personally strongly advice you not to) do not take his company open a new one and transfer the apartment to the new company.

I have friends who have taken over existing companies when buying property and have had them checked and transferred  by  lawyers only to have ( past unpaid tax bills ) presented to them to pay.

You have been given some very good advice from BMs you should consider it all.

Thais are well known to not pay condo apartment maint and tax charges some in one of my condos are over 200,000tb in the red.

You really need to do your home work on this deal I see big red flags all over it.

JDM

Totally agree in what you say.

I would never consider to get anyone else company... if i have to buy in this way, i will make my own company and the members will be trusted people and not just randomly people. I said, if...

I love mostly of the comments in here and the help i'm getting.. is really helpful and i hope this tread will be helpful also for others in the future

[mas188]

4 hours ago, GorGuy said:

I would strongly advise you listen to JDM.

JDM knows the fuck ups I made in trying to invest in Thailand and being too trusting in other people and not knowing they did not have the same moral standards as me.

JDM is always very precious in every post he get into and i super appreciate it.

However i'm not investing... i mean... i just want my place.. i don't even care to rent it out when i'm not here... i would never spend millionS in a propriety in thailand and it doesn't matter how much money i have...that's my personal opinion.. 

[mas188]

4 hours ago, supergeil said:

 

In this case, I believe he is buying from a foreigner, but it’s a good point: When you buy a condo through the Land Office, the seller must obtain a certificate of no debt from the condominium, showing that they do not owe management fee or similar.

YES

If you go through with the company purchase, you should insist on getting this certificate (the JPM of the condo would issue it regardless of whether or not it is an official sale).

Definetely... the chanote and this document was one of the first thing i made it clear when i found a condo where i m interested in

As for buying from a foreigner: I have met several foreigners here without a moral compass, Thailand seems to attract some really bad apples.

And I would second the advice of opening a new company, so a prioritized list of what I think your options are:

1. Buy in foreign name  
2. Buy in the name of a Thai you trust 100%
3. Start a company and transfer condo to that company
4. Take over the other person’s company.

On that list, I would strongly advise doing 1, but I have contemplated doing 2 myself.

1 is my hope, 2 even if is an option is not in my mind right now, 3 i m trying to understand if it can be an option, 4 never

Presently I would never touch option 3 or 4, but of course circumstances may change, as I could see myself wanting to build a house here.

Though were I to build a house here, I would probably still try to go for option 2 with a usefruct, and possibly have the Thai borrow against the land and give me the money (with me paying interests), so worst case I only lose the land appreciation profit when it is time to sell, and as my purchase would not be motivated by speculation, I would be willing to run that risk (I would anyway have a hard time selling the house for what I would probably spend on building it, as I would be motivated by having a nice home).

 

[mas188]

I would like to thanks everyone who is partecipating to this tread.

I definetely opened my mind a bit more.

I would never open a thai company in the same way i was thinking before..

However i haven't still deleted this possibility... maybe having members people as i know, with a B plan of a quick sell to someone who i totally trust, thai, in case things goes not in the right way... however i will see a laywer tomorrow or early next week and i will update you about what i get from that.

My hope is anyway always to find a foreigner ownership and i'm keep looking around no stop but i'm learning a lot from this so i will not stop whatever choice i will make until i will make everything clear.

Does anyone of you knows what is gonna happen in case of someone in the company die? or in case the one who die (wtf) would be me, as a foreigner ownership or as a part of a thai company.

Does exist "donations" in thailand? i mean transfer a propriety for free only paying taxes.

Please answer if you know, and not because you think is... thanks

[JAI DEE MAK]

5 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

6 hours ago, GorGuy said:

I would strongly advise you listen to JDM.
JDM knows the fuck ups I made in trying to invest in Thailand and being too trusting in other people and not knowing they did not have the same moral standards as me.

Tell us the story?

I don't think he will or should tell it .  What I will say is he is a very street wise highly intelligent and well educated man.

And to cheat him you would need to be a highly professional con man/woman and they were.

We are not talking small change here several million baht was involved and lost.

I am sure he will not mind me responding for him believe me he did all the checks and balances ( legal)  and still he was burned.

JDM

[JAI DEE MAK]

4 hours ago, supergeil said:

Can you imagine what would happen to the GDP if the government of a country seized land owned by foreigners who ran successful businesses employing many locals? Actually, that has happened (not in Thailand though)…

I am not betting on a crackdown, I just don’t want to make predictions based on “logic” when it comes to a country that has gone from democracy to military junta in the last few years, are now imprisoning people for sharing BBC articles on Facebook, and despite tourism being a big part of Thailand’s economy, are very protective about keeping businesses, jobs, and land on Thai hands.

What would be the more likely scenario is that land/condos owned through an illegal setup would simply be confiscated and “given back to the Thais” in some populistic move.

Again, I am not betting on this outcome, but crazier things have happened…

Yes just look at the situation at the Waterfront condo.

JDM

[Scuba+]

I don't think he will or should tell it .  What I will say is he is a very street wise highly intelligent and well educated man.
And to cheat him you would need to be a highly professional con man/woman and they were.
We are not talking small change here several million baht was involved and lost.
I am sure he will not mind me responding for him believe me he did all the checks and balances ( legal)  and still he was burned.
JDM

What can we learn from it then? Sounds quite a sophisticated scam