To wai or not to wai

[Jade Snake]

Good point Jade. When do you wai back someone to whom you wouldn't normally wai? Apparently Monks and (censored) don't need to ever return a wai. I presume if a child gives a wai you don't return it?

 

Don't remember ever being wai-ed by a child, but no if it happened I wouldn't return it.

[pubstud]

I'm not too sure if I got this right but are you discussing to return a wai or not to a working girl/bar girl?

 

Some adult Thais do not return wais to "inferiors" such as bargirls & maids & drivers & laborers. They consider themselves superior and by not returning a wai are deliberately informing that person of this mindset. I would strongly suggest to all farang to steer well clear of this. You are not Thai and never will be. Not every aspect of Thai culture is good and there are limits to the "When in Rome" approach.

 

I get wai'd by bargals often and always return their wais. I sure as shit not going to indicate to them that I consider them inferior to me. Ain't ever going there...no way.

[PepeLePew]

I'm not too sure if I got this right but are you discussing to return a wai or not to a working girl/bar girl?

 

Some adult Thais do not return wais to "inferiors" such as bargirls & maids & drivers & laborers. They consider themselves superior and by not returning a wai are deliberately informing that person of this mindset. I would strongly suggest to all farang to steer well clear of this. You are not Thai and never will be. Not every aspect of Thai culture is good and there are limits to the "When in Rome" approach.

 

I get wai'd by bargals often and always return their wais. I sure as shit not going to indicate to them that I consider them inferior to me. Ain't ever going there...no way.

 

That's interesting and dovetails nicely with what was being discussed with Shake re social status.

 

I think I'm going to practice and try a few wais on my next trip.

 

Wai not?

[PeterKe]

I'm not too sure if I got this right but are you discussing to return a wai or not to a working girl/bar girl?

 

Some adult Thais do not return wais to "inferiors" such as bargirls & maids & drivers & laborers. They consider themselves superior and by not returning a wai are deliberately informing that person of this mindset. I would strongly suggest to all farang to steer well clear of this. You are not Thai and never will be. Not every aspect of Thai culture is good and there are limits to the "When in Rome" approach.

 

I get wai'd by bargals often and always return their wais. I sure as shit not going to indicate to them that I consider them inferior to me. Ain't ever going there...no way.

 

 

Bravo, totally agree.

[Jade Snake]

I'm not too sure if I got this right but are you discussing to return a wai or not to a working girl/bar girl?

 

Some adult Thais do not return wais to "inferiors" such as bargirls & maids & drivers & laborers. They consider themselves superior and by not returning a wai are deliberately informing that person of this mindset. I would strongly suggest to all farang to steer well clear of this. You are not Thai and never will be. Not every aspect of Thai culture is good and there are limits to the "When in Rome" approach.

 

I get wai'd by bargals often and always return their wais. I sure as shit not going to indicate to them that I consider them inferior to me. Ain't ever going there...no way.

As an Aussie, I get the 'egalitarian' angle you're coming from. But I don't think you've got it quite right. I don't think it is a matter of thinking yourself superior, but of being conscious that you occupy a higher position in the social hierarchy, which in Thailand largely seems to come down to how much money you have (doesn't apply to monks obviously). It's a subtle difference but a difference nevertheless. I think it's intimately tied up with the Thai concept of 'kreeng jai', which is translated as 'awe heart' in Christopher G. Moore's 'Heart Talk' (page 83-84):

 

"This phrase reflects something - a mingling of reverence, respect, deference, homage, and fear - which every Thai person feels toward someone who is their senior, their boss, their teacher, mother and father, a police officer, or toward those who are perceived to be a member of a higher social class."

 

The maid / BG wais me because I am in a position to affect her fortunes - by giving a tip, or complaining to her boss / bar (causing her to lose face, or even her job), or put in a good word for her (giving her face), and because we farangs are generally accorded a relatively high status (at least, compared to maids, taxi drivers, market stall operators etc.), unless we show we don't deserve it. If that maid / BG won the lotto and thereby improved her social position, she wouldn't wai me nearly as much, or at all. If I wei a maid / BG, she's not going to think 'Oh what a nice, politically correct farang, he's saying we are equals', but 'Ah, this farang just got off the 747'. She'd probably be a bit confused if a well-off Thai did it, but in the case of a farang, would probably put it down to ignorance of Thai ways: She's not in a position to affect our fortunes in the way we can hers. Acting in accordance with kreeng jai herself would involve not pointing out the mistake (causing you to lose face), but smiling and maybe even saying something like 'You know Thai culture very good'. Kreeng jai (Greng jai), according to Eric Allyn in Thai Phrase Handbook translates it as 'being considerate' but literally 'fear-hearted'.

 

That's my take on it, anyway, and that's why I don't return wai-s to maids / bargirls / taxi drivers etc.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Jade Snake

[Jade Snake]

Another question; do Thais ever wai sarcastically or ironically? Is there such a thing as a sarcastic or ironic wai?

[pubstud]

As an Aussie, I get the 'egalitarian' angle you're coming from. But I don't think you've got it quite right. I don't think it is a matter of thinking yourself superior, but of being conscious that you occupy a higher position in the social hierarchy, which in Thailand largely seems to come down to how much money you have (doesn't apply to monks obviously). It's a subtle difference but a difference nevertheless. I think it's intimately tied up with the Thai concept of 'kreeng jai', which is translated as 'awe heart' in Christopher G. Moore's 'Heart Talk' (page 83-84):

 

"This phrase reflects something - a mingling of reverence, respect, deference, homage, and fear - which every Thai person feels toward someone who is their senior, their boss, their teacher, mother and father, a police officer, or toward those who are perceived to be a member of a higher social class."

 

The maid / BG wais me because I am in a position to affect her fortunes - by giving a tip, or complaining to her boss / bar (causing her to lose face, or even her job), or put in a good word for her (giving her face), and because we farangs are generally accorded a relatively high status (at least, compared to maids, taxi drivers, market stall operators etc.), unless we show we don't deserve it. If that maid / BG won the lotto and thereby improved her social position, she wouldn't wai me nearly as much, or at all. If I wei a maid / BG, she's not going to think 'Oh what a nice, politically correct farang, he's saying we are equals', but 'Ah, this farang just got off the 747'. She'd probably be a bit confused if a well-off Thai did it, but in the case of a farang, would probably put it down to ignorance of Thai ways: She's not in a position to affect our fortunes in the way we can hers. Acting in accordance with kreeng jai herself would involve not pointing out the mistake (causing you to lose face), but smiling and maybe even saying something like 'You know Thai culture very good'. Kreeng jai (Greng jai), according to Eric Allyn in Thai Phrase Handbook translates it as 'being considerate' but literally 'fear-hearted'.

 

That's my take on it, anyway, and that's why I don't return wai-s to maids / bargirls / taxi drivers etc.

 

 

I fail to see how any farang could consider himself to "occupy a higher position in the social hierarchy" (of Thailand) when we are categorized as "Aliens", only allowed to remain in the country on temporary stays, have to report our whereabouts to the government every 90 days, and are banned from owning property and taking employment. We have the social status of Negroes in USA circa 1940. We're not even on the radar when it comes to "social hierarchy" of Thailand.

 

As for: "If I wei a maid / BG, she's not going to think 'Oh what a nice, politically correct farang, he's saying we are equals', but 'Ah, this farang just got off the 747'." Yes, I agree. However, in the post I made I talk about returning wais to BGs. There are BGs in Pattaya that I'm friends with, I sit and have a beer and chat and help them with their English, when they wai me I return the wai because I don't think that's a BG wai-ing me, I think that's Noi or Lek, and she's a friend of mine.

[pubstud]

Another question; do Thais ever wai sarcastically or ironically? Is there such a thing as a sarcastic or ironic wai?

 

Yes, I have come across this a couple of times. I been introduced to some Thai man somewhere and I give him a wai and he starts smirking and snickering and gives a half-assed wimpy sort of wai back. I presume guys like this have some attitude towards farang and maybe don't like to see farang touching any aspect of Thai culture, such as a wai. Hard to tell because you never know what's going on in someone else's head but on a couple of occasions I have seen what I'd call impolite wais.

 

I've also seen Thais really over wai-ing someone. This is deliberate piss taking. Perhaps the other person has said or done something superior, so they cop an overdose of wais.

[Rob156]

I'd never Wai to an Working girl, if i get an Wai from them just pay it back with an nod.

 

If u give an Wai to an Person that is Obvious lower an Status as u are (and bargirls often regard themself like that) its not seen as an nice gesture since u show disrespect

 

That it can change when u are alone with her could be that she feel that she now sees it as equal level since u are now closer together, but not so sure about that.

[Jade Snake]

I fail to see how any farang could consider himself to "occupy a higher position in the social hierarchy" (of Thailand) when we are categorized as "Aliens", only allowed to remain in the country on temporary stays, have to report our whereabouts to the government every 90 days, and are banned from owning property and taking employment. We have the social status of Negroes in USA circa 1940. We're not even on the radar when it comes to "social hierarchy" of Thailand.

 

As for: "If I wei a maid / BG, she's not going to think 'Oh what a nice, politically correct farang, he's saying we are equals', but 'Ah, this farang just got off the 747'." Yes, I agree. However, in the post I made I talk about returning wais to BGs. There are BGs in Pattaya that I'm friends with, I sit and have a beer and chat and help them with their English, when they wai me I return the wai because I don't think that's a BG wai-ing me, I think that's Noi or Lek, and she's a friend of mine.

Yaah, I'm the same - if I became friends with a BG (and I'm totally open to that - just haven't spent enough time around any particular girl for that to happen yet, I guess) - I would return her wai as a friend. In my original question I was only thinking of BGs that I didn't already have a personal relationship with.

 

As for farangs and their position in the social hierarchy question, I'm not talking about government policy but interactions with flesh-and-blood Thais as we go about our daily business. As we know, Thai society is very hierarchical, and Thais are always assessing people they come across to see where they fit into the hierarchy, so they know how to act with them. As you point out, farangs don't have a natural place in this hierarchy, but for practical purposes the Thais have to put us somewhere, so they know how to act with us. By default, they give us a reasonably high place, because it's largely tied to how much money you have, and they assume just about all farangs have lots of it. Of course, if you go around looking like a bum, they'll downgrade their assessment of you in a heartbeat. One reason Thais take so much trouble over their appearance is because they know their position in the pecking order will be assessed on how affluent they look, and they want to be assessed as highly as possible. Of course, in Pattaya, farang drunken slobs aren't an uncommon sight but, as one Pattaya BG told me (just chatting, no BF on this occasion), 'Pattaya is farangland' - the 'rules' don't apply there as strictly as in other parts of LOS.

 

Government policy: I'm pretty sure farangs CAN take employment in LOS, and CAN own property (but not land) under certain circumstances (i.e. a condo in a building where the majority are owned by Thais, and on the fourth floor or above - something like that). Yes, as a visitor you have to renew your visa regularly, but it's the same in every country. Aussies and most Western nationals pretty much automatically get a visa on arrival in Thailand - Thais have to get their visa sorted BEFORE they arrive in Oz and other Western countries. Why should the Thai government just hand out indefinite-length visas to any farang who rocks up? Personally, I can see the point of a lot of government policy toward foreigners in general - if they allowed a free-for-all in buying property, can you imagine how many cashed-up farangs and Japanese would be snapping up the prime real estate? The Thai government is just preserving Thailand for the next generation of Thais and making sure they don't become second class citizens in their own country. /end-of-rant

Edited August 16, 2011 by Jade Snake

[Jade Snake]

Yes, I have come across this a couple of times. I been introduced to some Thai man somewhere and I give him a wai and he starts smirking and snickering and gives a half-assed wimpy sort of wai back.

 

That would be bloody annoying, but I guess it's best not to get worked up after it. He's probably hoping you'll start something, so he and 30 of his mates can kick your ribs in.

[SlowlyMan]

My first trip to the village, the Gik told me I would embarrass her if I didn't Wai her parents. She said don't worry about getting it wrong, just make an effort. Not trying would be disrespectful. They always laugh when I do it, so I guess I'm the village idiot.

[lespaul5000]

falangs should not wai imo it looks ridiculous, i've seen falangs wai bar girls...truely cringe worthy. and remember it's not like a handshake it's much more subtle and much more complicated than that. i've asked a few bar girls about falangs using the wai, and the answers were not complimentary. you're not Thai, you never will be, stick to the nod or handshake.

Edited August 16, 2011 by lespaul5000

[JonnyR]

falangs should not wai imo it looks ridiculous, i've seen falangs wai bar girls...truely cringe worthy. and remember it's not like a handshake it's much more subtle and much more complicated than that. i've asked a few bar girls about falangs using the wai, and the answers were not complimentary. you're not Thai, you never will be, stick to the nod or handshake.

 

 

I don't wai the bar girls but what about the older bar owners?

I got a few free 'thank you' drinks from a few bar owners and gave a wai in return. Should I have left it at thank you?

[OleKingCole]

Before I came out this time, I asked my Thai teacher about this very point as there was a possibility that I might get stuck meeting GF mum. She started explaining the complexities of that situation to me, I would be richer and older than mum but she would be the mum. The formula was calculated and we had practice sessions on hand positions and degree of bow etc. Luckily it never happened. There was also a lot about choice of vocabulary as well... Actually we did go meet auntie and all my preparation was thrown out as she immediately wai'd me, so mine was just a return wai - all calculations done for me!

 

There are also the wai's in the temple, but there I was given instructions - do exactly what I do. A thied situation, you are car dodging trying to get across the road and someone slows to let you across, I tend to do a quick non descript on just as a quick thanks whilst rushing past.

[QuotaMan]

I stopped doing it. Seems like too many tourists/foreigners don't know the 'rules' behind the wai so they look foolish wai-ing everything and everyone. Seen old guys wai-ing little kids for chris sakes.

 

I used to think it was 'rude' not to return it, but now when someone wais me I gently bow or dip my head to acknowledge their wai. I think they are used to non thais not wai-ing anyhow. As long as I do something to acknowledge their wai I don't see a problem.

[Sammy99]

Thais only wai to elderly . If you cant wai properly it looks funny to them

[ryouz]

the receptionists wai because they are required to. it's the mean of greeting the customers.

 

i usually nod, smile or bow slightly to accept.

 

and i don't wai much except to family and people i respect or supposedly have to respect.

[moonbeam]

Have to agree with Mr C on this one, I don't know how to Wai properly, nor how to do it to show the appropriate amount of respect, so a smile and a nod seems to be perfectly acceptable.

 

If you really want to Wai and do it with ultimate style, I suggest you try something like this.

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Perthie

Incredible flexibility. Can just about do that thing with the hands though.

[PeterKe]

I used to wonder about returning a Wai to my very junior members of staff and asked a few people more senior about it. They said that it is unexpected, but that the junior staff really appreciate it & love you for it.

The Thais, especially the younger generations, are not so uptight about this as farangs often presume. Do everything with a smile is much more important advice than worrying too much about the intricacies of a Wai.

[sccrhound]

I usually smile and nod/dip my chin in return. The TGF got mad at me one day when I wai'd her, saying I was not to do that because i was older. Customs can be difficult. One time I accidentally touched a girl on her head and immediately appologized. She said it was ok because I was older, if we were the same age it would have been an insult. In both these occasions there was at least a 20 year age difference.

[BluTraveller]

Nod and a smile of appreciation... no more is enough for me...