Crisis deepens as Greek central bank warns of euro exit

[Skalliwag]

At the risk of being accused of always bashing America, I would remind everyone that this economic crisis in Europe was caused in large part by Europe buying all those rubbish mortgages from Wall Street.

How did you not hear of Tunisia, that's where they filmed a few scenes of Star Wars.

Vancouver sounds nice but your winters scare the shit out of me.

Winters are perfect.Not too cold and you have to have some rain so things are green.

Which part of a Star Wars?Now I'm interested.

[joe_momma]

What good is a used up world, and how could it be worth having? - Sting

 

Hmm, a country wants to maintain super generous pensions while not paying into the pension plan, Nah, Greece is toast - no one cares. The excitement begins when Spain and Portugal start asking about their free deals. The EU currency was a hugely bad idea and long overdue for a "correction"

• Angela Merkel got 4% German unemployment for a decade - as Germany loaned money to the EU to buy Deutsche products
• Spain, Greece, and Portugal got free loans to buy German shit
• France got to argue that at least they were not Spain, Portugal, or Greece
• In the words of Ms. Thatcher (cunt) - "Everything is fine until you run out of other people's money."

It will be fun to watch the next few weeks - bend over, you are about to experience anal probulation.

[COLD SODA]

C&P from BBC .....

 

 

As the UK doesn't have the euro, it hasn't contributed to the bailout except through its membership of the International Monetary Fund, which lends to countries around the world.

But some British banks have lent money to Greece and would lose billions if the country went bankrupt.

They would lose even more if the problems spread to other countries like Spain and Italy.

If the banks are hit hard there could be another credit crunch, making it much harder for British people and businesses to borrow cash for loans and mortgages.

Companies in the UK also do many of their trade deals with firms in Europe, so financial problems overseas would affect British business too.

Unquote ....

[Skalliwag]

What good is a used up world, and how could it be worth having? - Sting

 

Hmm, a country wants to maintain super generous pensions while not paying into the pension plan, Nah, Greece is toast - no one cares. The excitement begins when Spain and Portugal start asking about their free deals. The EU currency was a hugely bad idea and long overdue for a "correction"

 

• Angela Merkel got 4% German unemployment for a decade - as Germany loaned money to the EU to buy Deutsche products
• Spain, Greece, and Portugal got free loans to buy German shit
• France got to argue that at least they were not Spain, Portugal, or Greece
• In the words of Ms. Thatcher (cunt) - "Everything is fine until you run out of other people's money."

It will be fun to watch the next few weeks - bend over, you are about to experience anal probulation.

What good is a used up world, and how could it be worth having? - Sting

 

Hmm, a country wants to maintain super generous pensions while not paying into the pension plan, Nah, Greece is toast - no one cares. The excitement begins when Spain and Portugal start asking about their free deals. The EU currency was a hugely bad idea and long overdue for a "correction"

 

• Angela Merkel got 4% German unemployment for a decade - as Germany loaned money to the EU to buy Deutsche products
• Spain, Greece, and Portugal got free loans to buy German shit
• France got to argue that at least they were not Spain, Portugal, or Greece
• In the words of Ms. Thatcher (cunt) - "Everything is fine until you run out of other people's money."

It will be fun to watch the next few weeks - bend over, you are about to experience anal probulation.

I can't imagine the Greeks going tits will have any affect on my life whatsoever.How could it?

[apter]

Interesting post  Apter .   Sounds as if the Greeks will be hit hard after years of snouts in the EU money trough .

 

Mikeyboy

 

Spot on. Take a trip round Northern Greece and the whole place is littered with shells of factory buildings that were funded with EU money but never actually went into production of anything.They got the initial tranches of money from the EU then went bust, pocketing the bulk of the money.

 

All true but as Cypriots we follow Greece over the cliffs and into the sea if needs be

 

And it was not only the savings that were lost - all the Bond Holders that were missold Savings Bonds in order that Cyprus could buy the German owned Greek Sovereign Bonds at a discount (total junk and knowingly sold by the Germans) also lost their money

 

The Bank of Cyprus trading arm made 100 million Euros in commission for the sale plus the commissions from selling the Bonds to anyone they could find to sell them to with interest rate promises of 6-8%. All of these people lost their money.

 

But lets not kid ourselves - what about all the American toxic mortgage packages that were sold to whoever would buy them - with huge commissions earned - and the debts were never going to be repaid

 

These institutions and the Governments behind them are all part of the same hypocrisy - The Greeks and Cypriots were the ones to be penalised the harshest and very publicly

 

There is plenty more that happened behind the scenes but that will all come out in the future

 

If Greece is shunned and bankrupted they will not wait a millisecond before offering Naval Bases to the Russians (who have lost their Syrian Bases) - something that Europe and particularly America will not be too pleased with

 

So its a game of chess

 

My feeling is the Greek Government will fall or at least a change of leader and a solution will be reached....

 

Not sure about following them over the cliffs any more. I'm seeing rising resentment against the Greeks here. Cyprus didn't even give them the 12 points at the Eurocobblers song contest and that used to be a given.......

 

I'm not saying the Cypriots are blameless. You're 100% correct. The people that handled the bond purchases walked away with millions in commissions BUT none of them will ever go to court for it. I was surprised to see Dinos Michaelides sentenced, but he was the exception that proves the rule. Like the Greeks, it's more convenient to blame someone else.

 

Social policies are great if you can afford them, and I don't see why German taxpayers should be asked to foot the bill for the Greeks.

 

Not so sure about the Russians stepping in. They made a big song and dance about the natural gas pipeline that was planned to go through Greece. Putin was in talks with Gazprom Ukraine last week for gas transit though Ukraine again to avoid what he termed "European Risk". The Bourgas - Alexandroupoli pipeline was planned when I was still there, 2002, and it's still nothing more than an idea 13 years later. Never going to happen.

 

Whatever the Euro outcome, Greece is still in Nato, so not 100% convinced about Russian naval bases.

 

I too see a solution being reached and a change of government or at least leadership and I really hope they get rid of Zoe Constantopoulou. A more biased and factious speaker of the houses of parliament would be difficult to imagine.

[Eastboy]

Interesting how people illustrate the problems with Greece and how they mismanage their economy, my question is - "How is this new information"

Weren't the creditors well aware of all this before they lent money to Greece. If someone lends money to a known dead beat, look for ulterior motives.

[Eastboy]

Winters are perfect.Not too cold and you have to have some rain so things are green.

Which part of a Star Wars?Now I'm interested.

 

Tataouine was named after a Tunisian town back in the 70's, and filmed there.

 

[Dr.Winston]

I think this situation illustrates a big flaw in the whole concept of 'Europe'. I remember as a small boy when I heard about what was then called the EEC I believe.

 

I remember thinking "Doesn't that just mean that the more successful countries will end up subsidising the less successful ones?"....Maybe there was something in my childish uneducated view that the politicians somehow missed?

[Eastboy]

I think this situation illustrates a big flaw in the whole concept of 'Europe'. I remember as a small boy when I heard about what was then called the EEC I believe.

 

I remember thinking "Doesn't that just mean that the more successful countries will end up subsidising the less successful ones?"....Maybe there was something in my childish uneducated view that the politicians somehow missed?

 

No doubt your point is valid but the rich countries in Europe have also benefited from the EU, especially Germany

 

 

http://fortune.com/2014/10/22/why-germany-is-the-eurozones-biggest-free-rider/   exert below.

Germany has also benefited from the fixed exchange rate that the Euro effectively secures between itself and its major European markets. This means that its export boom was not offset by a rise in its own currency. If Germany had been outside the Euro, currency appreciation would have hurt Germany’s gains. Not so in the Eurozone.

[Dr.Winston]

No doubt your point is valid but the rich countries in Europe have also benefited from the EU, especially Germany

 

 

http://fortune.com/2014/10/22/why-germany-is-the-eurozones-biggest-free-rider/ exert below.

Germany has also benefited from the fixed exchange rate that the Euro effectively secures between itself and its major European markets. This means that its export boom was not offset by a rise in its own currency. If Germany had been outside the Euro, currency appreciation would have hurt Germany’s gains. Not so in the Eurozone.

I have no doubt that the situation can be and has been profitable to some but rather than viewing it from that angle my comments were more directed at what I see as a fundamental flaw in the principle of the EU and I think the situation with Greece has provided us with an illustration of this that IMO can no longer be ignored.

[shadowcat]

Greek hotels are expensive today and the country is broke. Thailand isn,t broke and the hotels are cheap. mmmnnnm?

[King Cobra]

Refugees going to Greece and Italy by the thousands from Libya.  Maybe the Greeks will get on boats and sail to Thailand.

[apter]

I think this situation illustrates a big flaw in the whole concept of 'Europe'. I remember as a small boy when I heard about what was then called the EEC I believe.

 

I remember thinking "Doesn't that just mean that the more successful countries will end up subsidising the less successful ones?"....Maybe there was something in my childish uneducated view that the politicians somehow missed?

 

I had the exact same reservations plus the "closed market" market cycle which I never understood.

 

I think the idea was that EEC policies and opportunities would allow the less prosperous members to improve their economies and become more successful. Problem with that was that it's a lot easier to scrounge off EU grants rather than actually do anything to improve your lot, particularly in a place like Greece where tax evasion is rampant and the bureaucracy is Byzantine in its complexity. Getting anything done is so complicated and time consuming that the notion of "fakellaki" (envelope) is everywhere. Rather than go through the bureaucracy, bribe the official with a "fakellaki" of money.

 

It's everywhere and breeds a light hearted view of corruption.

[shadowcat]

Athens hotels report 92% occupancy for may. Greece is a pricey tourism destination. Reports that it is set to boom. Lower vat tax in the islands. Not all doom and gloom over there. Too expensive for me to holiday there. Where is all that revenue going? Into pockets or offshore.

[apter]

Athens hotels report 92% occupancy for may. Greece is a pricey tourism destination. Reports that it is set to boom. Lower vat tax in the islands. Not all doom and gloom over there. Too expensive for me to holiday there. Where is all that revenue going? Into pockets or offshore.

 

Which under normal circumstances. I'd be all for, given the costs of getting to some of the islands. Problem is, the system is abused. Goods arrive at the islands on the lower VAT tariff, then get turned right round back to the mainland and the VAT difference pocketed.

 

What Greece needs more than anything is a squad of German tax inspectors. That would sort things out.

[shadowcat]

Which under normal circumstances. I'd be all for, given the costs of getting to some of the islands. Problem is, the system is abused. Goods arrive at the islands on the lower VAT tariff, then get turned right round back to the mainland and the VAT difference pocketed.

 

What Greece needs more than anything is a squad of German tax inspectors. That would sort things out.

The Greeks in Sydney love dealing in cash. Some only deal in cash. Maybe in Greece the only place to be is in the cash economy. Interesting what you say about the turnaround scenario.Sorry to sound nieve but perhaps there is plenty of cash around just not evenly distributed. Who in their right mind would hand over their hard earned to the Greek Tax Office. Cleary they have been doing fuck all for years.

[Eastboy]

One of the most amusing stories of the Greeks evading their taxes was the pool tax. Greeks have to pay a tax if they have a swimming pool, In Athens there were 312 people paying the tax, however when google maps arrived, they discovered 16974 pools.

 

http://boingboing.net/2010/05/04/satellite-photos-cat.html

 

Another great one was a dentist who declared an income of 500 euros for the tax year

[Dr.Winston]

I had the exact same reservations plus the "closed market" market cycle which I never understood.

 

I think the idea was that EEC policies and opportunities would allow the less prosperous members to improve their economies and become more successful. Problem with that was that it's a lot easier to scrounge off EU grants rather than actually do anything to improve your lot, particularly in a place like Greece where tax evasion is rampant and the bureaucracy is Byzantine in its complexity. Getting anything done is so complicated and time consuming that the notion of "fakellaki" (envelope) is everywhere. Rather than go through the bureaucracy, bribe the official with a "fakellaki" of money.

 

It's everywhere and breeds a light hearted view of corruption.

I think it's like so many things in life, the reality can end up being quite far removed from the idealistic aspirations behind the idea.

[shadowcat]

They don,t mind a punt on the ponies the Greeks. They like going to the casino too. Risk taking doesn,t bother them.Funny about the swimming pool tax. Democracy, olives,Greek sex and fetta cheese.All at once with Nana Muskouri singing along.

[apter]

One of the most amusing stories of the Greeks evading their taxes was the pool tax. Greeks have to pay a tax if they have a swimming pool, In Athens there were 312 people paying the tax, however when google maps arrived, they discovered 16974 pools.

 

http://boingboing.net/2010/05/04/satellite-photos-cat.html

 

Another great one was a dentist who declared an income of 500 euros for the tax year

 

In 2000, I paid tax on my salary which was 28 million Drachmas.

 

The president of the company I worked for paid tax on a declared income of 7.8 million Drachmas. That would have just about covered his cigar bill for the year.

[apter]

The Greeks in Sydney love dealing in cash. Some only deal in cash. Maybe in Greece the only place to be is in the cash economy. Interesting what you say about the turnaround scenario.Sorry to sound nieve but perhaps there is plenty of cash around just not evenly distributed. Who in their right mind would hand over their hard earned to the Greek Tax Office. Cleary they have been doing fuck all for years.

 

The Greeks are a very inventive people. Take Liquid fuels for example.

 

Marine Diesel will work perfectly well in diesel cars as the specifications aren't really that far apart. Exclude the fact that Marine diesel kicks out about a million times more pollution when used in a car engine as the compression isn't high enough, a car engine will run on Marine diesel. For how long - that's a different question.

 

Now, Marine diesel is coloured with a special dye to differentiate it from normal automotive diesel.

 

In Greece, Marine diesel has a much lower tax than Automotive diesel but it can't be sold at petrol pumps due to the dye. You can probably guess where this is going....

 

The Greeks figured out a way to remove the dye and colour Maine diesel the same as Automotive. Hey presto - lower priced fuel at the the pumps and once again, the state collecting sod all in tax revenues.

[Eastboy]

In 2000, I paid tax on my salary which was 28 million Drachmas.

 

The president of the company I worked for paid tax on a declared income of 7.8 million Drachmas. That would have just about covered his cigar bill for the year.

 

That's amazing   I'm curious though, how did you know what his declared income was?

 

How are things in Cyprus by the way? My first puppy love was a Cypriot girl before she returned to Cyprus.  Her parents decided to leave South Africa because they reckoned black rule would economically ruin the country, little did they know the trouble heading for Europe. Of course not gloating but it just highlights how you cannot predict the future.

[jerry]

Fuck them off , take the loss and move on ... 

[marbella]

Greece should be encouraged to leave the Euro ,but remain in the union.

 

Greece should never have been allowed into the Euro .

 

The idiot banks who have made loans to a bankrupt country will lose all their money

 

Greeks pay very little in tax,so they will never be able to repay their debt

 

Greece should bring back their own currency and then devalue it, so they can increase their only real revenue ,  Tourists

 

The Euro is doomed to fail ,unless it is retained by a few wealthy Northern European countries.

[apter]

That's amazing   I'm curious though, how did you know what his declared income was?

 

How are things in Cyprus by the way? My first puppy love was a Cypriot girl before she returned to Cyprus.  Her parents decided to leave South Africa because they reckoned black rule would economically ruin the country, little did they know the trouble heading for Europe. Of course not gloating but it just highlights how you cannot predict the future.

 

Quite simple. Tax returns in Greece are submitted as what they call "ekkatharistiko". I saw his tax return.

 

Cyprus is a pretty laid back place to live. Comfortable although insulated life style. I can think of a lot worse places to live (in fact I've lived in a few).