Buddha and Thai Ladies

[GlennUK]

In Thai culture the children obviously take care of the parents  and I have known many parents who also tell these ladies that they have to take care of their siblings as well. Here I refer to the ladies who flock to work in the bars in Pattaya, Phuket and Bangkok. I have been told by several Thai "experts" that about the only difference between Indian and Thai Buddhism is that the former condemns those ladies who pursue such a profession without exception. Whereas the Thai version says it is ok as long as it is support the Parents though it makes no reference to the rest of the family. Recently I had a conversation with a thai who studies Buddhism though by no means a scholar who states that no such exception occurs and it is basically bad.

Obviously the best person to answer such a question would be a religious scholar and one questions how many are PA members but I suppose the study of religion and the study of pattaya and its various activities are not mutually exclusive. 

[Mick Pattaya]

I think the attitude to sex or sex work is more shaped by the socio-politico events that happened in these two countries rather than a thorough & rigorous interpretation of theology.

You have to appreciate the unlike the subcontinent, Thailand was never colonized either by medieval Muslims or puritanical Victorians who both held & propagated a rather rigid & closed version of a sexual life. Thereby, Thai society retained the basic characteristics of its animistic past where there was no/less scorn about sex & whatever it entailed.

[GlennUK]

Certainly the culture is very different though I do wonder if we see a very distorted view of it as Mongers certainly the majority of Thai girls would react in horror at the idea of doing such work. I also wonder if it is so easily accepted because the majority of girls who do so are from lower classes and the Thais as such dont really care what they do and expect only bad behaviour. For sure most  Middle and upper class Thai men are not popping down Soi 6 to find a wife. Nor even the Chinese with their shortage of marriageable age ladies. 

Though an interesting subject for debate I don't think it could be ever be resolved but my question was strictly religious in nature. As in  have the Thais diverged from the Original teachings where this area is concerned. Of course I could also be mistaken and Buddhism is perfectly ok with it. 

[onehunglo]

On 9/5/2018 at 20:14, GlennUK said:

Certainly the culture is very different though I do wonder if we see a very distorted view of it as Mongers certainly the majority of Thai girls would react in horror at the idea of doing such work. I also wonder if it is so easily accepted because the majority of girls who do so are from lower classes and the Thais as such dont really care what they do and expect only bad behaviour. For sure most  Middle and upper class Thai men are not popping down Soi 6 to find a wife. Nor even the Chinese with their shortage of marriageable age ladies. 

Though an interesting subject for debate I don't think it could be ever be resolved but my question was strictly religious in nature. As in  have the Thais diverged from the Original teachings where this area is concerned. Of course I could also be mistaken and Buddhism is perfectly ok with it. 

the middle and upper class thai men most probably don't go down the 6 looking for a wife because some most probaly are their wives . 55555

[brainhack]

It all goes kinda deep, its seemingly very complicated coming from the West - need to understand buddhism to grasp it!

This story covers a lot of the relevant aspects:

http://community.humanityhealing.net/profiles/blogs/the-monk-and-the-prostitute

[Srirachapocalypse]

I recall a conversation many years ago with a girl in Patpong who more or less related what has been posted as far as responsibility to help support the impoverished family back in the province, sort of taking one for the team "so my sisters can go to school", along with a healthy dose of Buddhist karmic theory in as far as she understood it. My guess is her understanding of karma would be quite different from a religious scholar.

I also had a conversation with a girl in Olongapo City which was quite similar, though instead of karma, mentioning how Mary Magdalene had been a prostitute was woven into her interpretation of still being a practicing Catholic.

[laxmin]

On 05/09/2018 at 03:01, GlennUK said:

I have been told by several Thai "experts" that about the only difference between Indian and Thai Buddhism is that the former condemns those ladies who pursue such a profession without exception.

Indian Buddhist here.

Buddhist scriptures are all full of references to courtesans, street walkers and ladies of pleasure. In fact, Gautama Buddha had several disciples and well wishers who were courtesans and prostitutes who donated their earnings for the Sangha. 

Indian culture was largely tolerant of the practice of prostitution (as well as transgenders). There were even prostitutes employed in temples (Deva Dasis) who danced for the pleasure of the deity and were also available for other men who could afford to pay fees. The Kamasutra has ample references to prostitutes and their services. By extension, Indianisation of Thailand also brought in these tolerances. Prostitutes also paid taxes and had a part and place in the society with well defined rights. 

Actually there are even Hindu and Buddhist rituals and procedures where prostitutes, transgenders and others not part of the mainstream society are needed & essential as part of a step or two. (e.g. a novice will have to fetch a flower or garment from a prostitute, etc)

In the Ramayana, there are references to courtesans who danced at the Coronation of Lord Rama. Hindu and Buddhist scriptures describe Swarga (or Heaven) having Apsaras (heavenly courtesans). 

In short: Prostitution was tolerated in early Indian / Buddhist culture. India today has been influenced by victorian mores (due to the British raj) while the Thai culture retains its old tolerances.  

[laxmin]

Further Reading: 

Buddhism and its relation to women and prostitution in Thai society

Prostitution in Buddhism

History of Prostitution in Ancient India (upto 3rd Century AD) 

Edited January 5, 2020 by laxmin

[GlennUK]

On 05/01/2020 at 06:50, laxmin said:

Indian Buddhist here.

Buddhist scriptures are all full of references to courtesans, street walkers and ladies of pleasure. In fact, Gautama Buddha had several disciples and well wishers who were courtesans and prostitutes who donated their earnings for the Sangha. 

 

Thank you for your informative and educated response I also think I can see why the C of E is in decline

Perhaps the colonisation of countries by the UK has not been all to the good and it does account for the difference in between Thai and Indian Buddhism. 

I always like to learn new things and this has been very helpful.

[GlennUK]

On 07/01/2019 at 06:52, Srirachapocalypse said:

I recall a conversation many years ago with a girl in Patpong who more or less related what has been posted as far as responsibility to help support the impoverished family back in the province, sort of taking one for the team "so my sisters can go to school", along with a healthy dose of Buddhist karmic theory in as far as she understood it. My guess is her understanding of karma would be quite different from a religious scholar.

I also had a conversation with a girl in Olongapo City which was quite similar, though instead of karma, mentioning how Mary Magdalene had been a prostitute was woven into her interpretation of still being a practicing Catholic.

Yes the taking one for the team except they then use this to justify lying cheating stealing and whoring even when they are married and the team sits on its arse back in Thailand encouraging this behaviour and happy the money is rolling in.

[Slope shredder]

Wow this is an eye opener, first I must confess (forgive the pun) I am a disavowed catholic, any faith that states you will burn in hell for fornication deserves to be consigned to the history books as a cult.

I always thought of Buddhism as a way of life, and its teachings designed to make you feel good about being good, if that makes sense rather than you will burn in the fires of hell for forgetting to kneel in church on a Sunday.

As far as the courtesan/prostitute part goes, my personal opinion is that it is a purely Victorian/Puritanical concept after all as Srirachapocalypse pointed out Mary Magdelene was a prostitute mentioned and one assumes derided by the biblical scholars yet loved by Jesus.

As I said I am a disavowed Catholic and the reasons are many, but my main reason is who am I to tell you how to live your life and who are you to tell me how to live my life. 

I have recently formed a relationship with a bar girl, yes I know that she has had many customers, and I know something of her history and family. This girl goes to the temple to pay her respects at every opportunity, including asking Buddha to bring me good luck and health! And it is only our western values that would call her a hypocrite. I know that back home in her village she has children that her parents are caring for, and the children are in education which has a cost to. This lady spends at least 49 weeks in Pattaya earning the money to pay for her children and support her parents, something in the west we have got arse about face, my kids expecting a large inheritance as well as being funded throughout their lives (how wrong they are).

In my opinion anyone who does what they can to support their family (even opening their legs) to a better life is to be respected, and I can only imagine Buddha approving, the Pope and the Muslim Iman as well as a few other faith leaders I can assume will not approve.

In Glenn Uk's original post he had a conversation with a Thai national who stated that it goes against Buddhas teachings, I very much doubt it though I'm no expert, but I do wonder if the girls at least at first feel sullied, I am sure that the majority would prefer to earn the same money in a different line of work, it is that thought that makes me feel that we mongerer's have created this conundrum.

This then opens up a whole can of socio-economic worms that I at this time do  not wish to get into.

Good thread I think

 

 

[ShaneFalco]

On 04/09/2018 at 23:31, GlennUK said:

 

Obviously the best person to answer such a question would be a religious scholar and one questions how many are PA members but I suppose the study of religion and the study of pattaya and its various activities are not mutually exclusive. 

I once walked down the 6 very late, a ladyboy standing in the entrance to a semi-closed bar lifted her skirt and revealed a quite big "clit"... A "Holy fuck" escaped me...