Water Park Condo

[latestarter]

Has anybody purchased, or looked closely at, Water Park Condos.

Considering purchasing there and would appreciate any feedback

[davidge]

I know someone who's an owner there.

He seems to be content with his purchase but there are some issues.

eg developer promising certain things (sauna I think?) that haven't been provided; 

apparently, no funds in condo accounts to properly buy equipment or pay staff a decent wage etc etc. 

Still early days so guess it depends on how the relatively new owners management committee turn out. Think the Juristic Person is finding difficult to get things done properly as developer is no longer interested in doing anything.

[latestarter]

Thanks, that's good to know.

It's surprising the developer would walk away at this stage given that they still have several units to sell.

[davidge]

I'm just going on a few chats over Christmas.

Think it's a reasonable, quiet building - though he doesn't actually live there as he's  rented the unit out.

It is in the hands of the Juristic Person & Management Committee now though so don't think he's expecting the developers to provide anything else - he was running around looking for sun loungers for the pool as hardly any had been put there!

 

[JAI DEE MAK]

4 hours ago, davidge said:

I know someone who's an owner there.

He seems to be content with his purchase but there are some issues.

eg developer promising certain things (sauna I think?) that haven't been provided; 

apparently, no funds in condo accounts to properly buy equipment or pay staff a decent wage etc etc. 

Still early days so guess it depends on how the relatively new owners management committee turn out. Think the Juristic Person is finding difficult to get things done properly as developer is no longer interested in doing anything.

Big red flags for a new condo.

It should have a substantial  sinking fund !!!.

JDM

 

[Oukiva]

1 hour ago, JAI DEE MAK said:

Big red flags for a new condo.

It should have a substantial  sinking fund !!!.

Condo current account and Condo sinking fund are two very different things.

The latter is a kind of emergency account for big works/renovations, and it can't be used just to pay employees or buy equipment.

[davidge]

Yes. I hope for my friend's sake that the sinking fund is properly in place.

However, there is a serious shortage in the General Fund. No money to buy much equipment etc and staff not always being paid - from what I understand.

 

[KittenKong]

8 hours ago, davidge said:

However, there is a serious shortage in the General Fund. No money to buy much equipment etc and staff not always being paid - from what I understand.

 

That seems remarkable in a new(ish) building. The common fee rate would have been set at something fairly sensible and inflation would not yet have had time to make a supplementary fee necessary.

Shortage of current account money here usually either means theft by management, or that co-owners aren't paying. You cant do much about the former but there are a few things a decent JPM/committee can do about the latter.

[vivid2]

 
That seems remarkable in a new(ish) building. The common fee rate would have been set at something fairly sensible and inflation would not yet have had time to make a supplementary fee necessary.
Shortage of current account money here usually either means theft by management, or that co-owners aren't paying. You cant do much about the former but there are a few things a decent JPM/committee can do about the latter.

In my experience most developers estimate the homeowners association dues very low on purpose, so as not to scare away potential buyers.

Most buyers are hoping for low maintenance costs; high estimates cause them to seek buildings with low projected costs. So it becomes a liar's game among developers to see who will artificially predict the lowest cost. Once the units are sold the association is short of operating funds so the dues get raised dramatically. And the buyers have no recourse whatsoever.

It's very important for buyers to realize that their costs are going to go up, and prepare for a sizable increase in order to maintain their investment in reasonable condition.

[JAI DEE MAK]

10 hours ago, Oukiva said:

Condo current account and Condo sinking fund are two very different things.

The latter is a kind of emergency account for big works/renovations, and it can't be used just to pay employees or buy equipment.

 Yes know they are I own many apartments in different condos and have been a committee member in the past.

I was alluding to the fact that it should be checked, it should be in a separate account.

The JPM/committee can authorise use of it !!!! yes it should be only used for urgent Emergency repairs however this rule has been broken by some condos in the past.

There should be (by Thai law) a monthly balance sheet posted on the condo notice board for all to see this should be not later than the 15th of the following month

all should be listed there.

 

JDM

 

[KittenKong]

21 hours ago, vivid said:

In my experience most developers estimate the homeowners association dues very low on purpose, so as not to scare away potential buyers.

Most buyers are hoping for low maintenance costs; high estimates cause them to seek buildings with low projected costs. So it becomes a liar's game among developers to see who will artificially predict the lowest cost. Once the units are sold the association is short of operating funds so the dues get raised dramatically. And the buyers have no recourse whatsoever.

It's very important for buyers to realize that their costs are going to go up, and prepare for a sizable increase in order to maintain their investment in reasonable condition.

 

 

Off-plan developments I have looked at here mostly had common fees in the region of 30-40B or more. I dont know about other buildings aimed at the cheaper end of the market but I think this should be enough to cover day-to-day costs. Any shortfall with that level of income can probably be attributed to theft or other misappropriation, both of which can be very common in badly run buildings here.

I certainly agree that co-owners may have some much higher bills to pay in the medium/long term, especially in smaller "boutique" buildings or those with common areas that may require expensive maintenance (Spanish galleons, wave machines, jacuzzis, Gyms, saunas etc). Such buildings are to be avoided as far as I'm concerned.

[latestarter]

Thanks everybody for your feedback. I have now doubled the maintenance figure in my budget..

[KittenKong]

21 hours ago, JAI DEE MAK said:

 Yes know they are I own many apartments in different condos and have been a committee member in the past.

I was alluding to the fact that it should be checked, it should be in a separate account.

The JPM/committee can authorise use of it !!!! yes it should be only used for urgent Emergency repairs however this rule has been broken by some condos in the past.

There should be (by Thai law) a monthly balance sheet posted on the condo notice board for all to see this should be not later than the 15th of the following month

all should be listed there.

 

A lot of things should happen but in Thailand they frequently dont. This is generally due to lack of proper laws and a general absence of any policing or appropriately severe penalties. Basically if your building has a dishonest or stupid JPM and/or committee then money can vanish fast.

[latestarter]

9 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

Off-plan developments I have looked at here mostly had common fees in the region of 30-40B or more. I dont know about other buildings aimed at the cheaper end of the market but I think this should be enough to cover day-to-day costs. Any shortfall with that level of income can probably be attributed to theft or other misappropriation, both of which can be very common in badly run buildings here.

I certainly agree that co-owners may have some much higher bills to pay in the medium/long term, especially in smaller "boutique" buildings or those with common areas that may require expensive maintenance (Spanish galleons, wave machines, jacuzzis, gyms, saunas etc). Such buildings are to be avoided as far as I'm concerned.

I can understand maintenance at buildings with multiple pools and other fancy equipment will cost more to maintain, but I'm curious to know why smaller boutique buildings are a potential problem. I am looking at one right now in Pratumnak with just over 100 units....would that be considered boutique? 

[chris2004]

2 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

Off-plan developments I have looked at here mostly had common fees in the region of 30-40B or more. I dont know about other buildings aimed at the cheaper end of the market but I think this should be enough to cover day-to-day costs. Any shortfall with that level of income can probably be attributed to theft or other misappropriation, both of which can be very common in badly run buildings here.

I certainly agree that co-owners may have some much higher bills to pay in the medium/long term, especially in smaller "boutique" buildings or those with common areas that may require expensive maintenance (Spanish galleons, wave machines, jacuzzis, gyms, saunas etc). Such buildings are to be avoided as far as I'm concerned.

I think an issue for many condos is that the developers don't pay their common fee for unsold units, which often can be 50% + of the total. The developer in my condo paid initially but then stopped, we have had to take them to Court to get payment.

[KittenKong]

9 hours ago, latestarter said:

I can understand maintenance at buildings with multiple pools and other fancy equipment will cost more to maintain, but I'm curious to know why smaller boutique buildings are a potential problem. I am looking at one right now in Pratumnak with just over 100 units....would that be considered boutique? 

 

100 is perhaps on the cusp. Large buildings here can have 1000 units or more and there are obvious economies of scale: for example a building with 1000 units has the same billing software and auditing requirements as a building with just 50 units. Both also only need one manager and management company, though obviously other staff may be needed more in the larger building. Some buildings here only have a few tens of units and these may end up being very expensive, especially if something goes wrong.

[KittenKong]

8 hours ago, chris2004 said:

I think an issue for many condos is that the developers don't pay their common fee for unsold units, which often can be 50% + of the total. The developer in my condo paid initially but then stopped, we have had to take them to Court to get payment.

 

This can indeed be a problem in buildings where not all units are sold. But as you point out the debt is there and will be paid eventually, or the unsold units could be sold off by the court to pay the bills.

Potentially a nuisance for cash-flow in the short/medium term, admittedly.

[latestarter]

All of these comments are really helpful.

As a newcomer I am certainly finding the Pattaya property market a bit of a minefield, but at the same time would appear to be a buyers market at present.

The problem is sorting out the "too good to be true" deals from legitimate fair offers.

[KittenKong]

16 hours ago, latestarter said:

All of these comments are really helpful.

As a newcomer I am certainly finding the Pattaya property market a bit of a minefield, but at the same time would appear to be a buyers market at present.

The problem is sorting out the "too good to be true" deals from legitimate fair offers.

 

Bear in mind that most advertised prices here leave a huge amount of room for negotiation, no matter what anyone says. Negotiate very hard and dont worry about walking away: vast oversupply means that there is always another similar condo for sale in the next corridor or the next building. If you assume that everyone connected with Thai property is lying to you then you wont go far wrong.

Buying is easy and quick here: selling can take forever and day.

[KittenKong]

.

[latestarter]

Whilst not specifically related to my original enquiry about Water Park, could anybody tell me how building insurance works in Thailand. Is it covered by the monthly maintenance fee?

And another totally unrelated question. Does anybody have dealings with New Nordic Group? Apart from their own promotional material, I'm not finding a lot of good press about them.

[davidge]

2 hours ago, latestarter said:

Whilst not specifically related to my original enquiry about Water Park, could anybody tell me how building insurance works in Thailand. Is it covered by the monthly maintenance fee?

And another totally unrelated question. Does anybody have dealings with New Nordic Group? Apart from their own promotional material, I'm not finding a lot of good press about them.

I won't go into detail on here but 

AVOID NEW NORDIC

 

[belzybob]

31 minutes ago, davidge said:

I won't go into detail on here but 

AVOID NEW NORDIC

 

Wise counsel.

[KittenKong]

19 hours ago, latestarter said:

Whilst not specifically related to my original enquiry about Water Park, could anybody tell me how building insurance works in Thailand. Is it covered by the monthly maintenance fee?

 

The building structure and general liability is covered by insurance that the building pays for out of the common fee. This does not normally include things like water damage occurring between units, or damage to furniture or possessions or decoration/fittings inside units by fire or theft or other causes, or individual liability. In some well-managed buildings there will be a discounted negotiated optional rate for private contents insurance that will cover individual risk to items inside your unit, and your liability to other units, but if you buy it yourself from a broker it will probably cost around 2,000-2,500B per year per 1MB of cover.

The most common sort of individual risk in a condo building is water leakage between units (normally from above). The older the building the more likely this is.

[KittenKong]

19 hours ago, latestarter said:

And another totally unrelated question. Does anybody have dealings with New Nordic Group? Apart from their own promotional material, I'm not finding a lot of good press about them.

I think you have answered your own question. Though personally I would not trust any developer or agent or lawyer in Thailand further than I can spit.