Long Haul Business Class for under $2K (Long Post)

[julio321]

27 minutes ago, travelling_man said:

Thanks for replying ... and I'm NOT trying to argue ... however I wanted to point out that booking cars through Amazon Budget has saved me a fortune ... and 10% of the rental is returned as an Amazon credit.  

I've tested the pricing against all the discount codes I have access to as well as online and so far, the Amazon partnership beats all of them.

https://www.budget.com/en/offers/partner-offers/amazon-benefits

That's cool, I didn't know about that Amazon car rental rebate. Do you have a costco club membership? Booking my car rental through costco travel typically saves me more than 10% over booking directly with the rental agency and an extra 2% off if one has executive membership. I've got a rental I just booked through costco travel for next week and it's saving me about 14% (16% if including the exec rebate) over the cheapest price (Avis in this case).

[Luv2Phuket]

Question for the "miles brain trust".....

My February trip looks like it is headed STRAIGHT to the shitter -- I had a great RT booked on JAL, but cancellation of test & go and the new requirement of 7 days ASQ OR a return to the Phuket Sandbox leave me with some unenviable options.

Award booking into Phuket are few and far between. I blew the most likely option when I didn't buy Alaska miles to top up my account....but 125,000 Alaska miles for a OW biz class ticket seems foolish, given that it equates to a OW biz class AND a OW first class ticket on Cathay.

Which of the following fairly limited options would be most attractive to you guys:

Option 1:
Stick with my current award booking and do ASQ for 7 nights in Bangkok
This should be the cheapest option, but it is the least attractive to me, as roughly 1/3 of my trip would be spent sitting in a hotel room alone, as I only have 23 or 24 nights there. If I was staying 2 months, 7 night sin ASQ is doable, but not with a 23 night trip.

Option 2:
Book a OW ticket into Phuket in Premium Economy
This is the "middle-priced" option. Surprisingly, I can snag SQ PE for around $1500, factoring in an upgraded seat option (solo seat). About $350 of it would be nonrefundable. It would be PE from USA to SIN, but then Economy into Phuket (it's only a 2 hour flight).

Option 3:
Book OW from LAX to HKT on Finnair - only 1 stop in Helsinki
This is the priciest option -- about $2650, factoring in the ticket from LAS-LAX, BUT lie flat seats the whole way (2 10-hour legs) and AY is oneworld so the flight would help towards my AA status for 2023 (locked up 2022 already). It's also effectively fully refundable, with only a $50 processing fee.

I'm torn....when I first looked, the AY biz flight was only $2300, but that ticket is nonrefundable. Nonrefundable is a little too risky for me, so I would lean towards the extra $350 for flexibility (in case the whole Sandbox thing goes to shit due to COVID). 

It may be worth $800 for an upgrade to lie flat, but is it worth an extra $1150?

I'm also going to incur the increased cost of a Sandbox hotel in Phuket AND the cost of "bringing sand to the sandbox," as I would likely fly my LT in from Pattaya (which entails the additional cost of wining and dining her....but the sex with her is off the charts! 555). AND I'm gonna need to fly myself from Phuket back to Pattaya....

Part of me leans towards the lie flat, but I slept like shit on my last trip (an hour or 2 tops), so maybe it's worth saving the $$$ and going PE?

Thoughts/opinions from the brain trust?

[robert6996]

2 hours ago, Luv2Phuket said:

It may be worth $800 for an upgrade to lie flat, but is it worth an extra $1150?

Considering all the money you plan on spending for your 23/24 nights on your trip, plus travel expenses, what's an extra $350. It's less than $15 a day. 

I would book whatever option makes you the happiest.

[SlowlyMan]

10 hours ago, Luv2Phuket said:

Question for the "miles brain trust".....

My February trip looks like it is headed STRAIGHT to the shitter -- I had a great RT booked on JAL, but cancellation of test & go and the new requirement of 7 days ASQ OR a return to the Phuket Sandbox leave me with some unenviable options.

Award booking into Phuket are few and far between. I blew the most likely option when I didn't buy Alaska miles to top up my account....but 125,000 Alaska miles for a OW biz class ticket seems foolish, given that it equates to a OW biz class AND a OW first class ticket on Cathay.

Which of the following fairly limited options would be most attractive to you guys:

Option 1:
Stick with my current award booking and do ASQ for 7 nights in Bangkok
This should be the cheapest option, but it is the least attractive to me, as roughly 1/3 of my trip would be spent sitting in a hotel room alone, as I only have 23 or 24 nights there. If I was staying 2 months, 7 night sin ASQ is doable, but not with a 23 night trip.

Option 2:
Book a OW ticket into Phuket in Premium Economy
This is the "middle-priced" option. Surprisingly, I can snag SQ PE for around $1500, factoring in an upgraded seat option (solo seat). About $350 of it would be nonrefundable. It would be PE from USA to SIN, but then Economy into Phuket (it's only a 2 hour flight).

Option 3:
Book OW from LAX to HKT on Finnair - only 1 stop in Helsinki
This is the priciest option -- about $2650, factoring in the ticket from LAS-LAX, BUT lie flat seats the whole way (2 10-hour legs) and AY is oneworld so the flight would help towards my AA status for 2023 (locked up 2022 already). It's also effectively fully refundable, with only a $50 processing fee.

I'm torn....when I first looked, the AY biz flight was only $2300, but that ticket is nonrefundable. Nonrefundable is a little too risky for me, so I would lean towards the extra $350 for flexibility (in case the whole Sandbox thing goes to shit due to COVID). 

It may be worth $800 for an upgrade to lie flat, but is it worth an extra $1150?

I'm also going to incur the increased cost of a Sandbox hotel in Phuket AND the cost of "bringing sand to the sandbox," as I would likely fly my LT in from Pattaya (which entails the additional cost of wining and dining her....but the sex with her is off the charts! 555). AND I'm gonna need to fly myself from Phuket back to Pattaya....

Part of me leans towards the lie flat, but I slept like shit on my last trip (an hour or 2 tops), so maybe it's worth saving the $$$ and going PE?

Thoughts/opinions from the brain trust?

I'm in the same position with business booked on Qatar with miles.  However, the instability at the moment is concerning. Honestly, the return is more concerning to me. If I would test positive the day before departure, that would be a problem.  Additionally, if people stop going to Thailand, the flights will start canceling. A good seat means nothing if the flight is canceled. 

If you still are determined to go, I would take option #2.

[Luv2Phuket]

IFWIW, 'm leaning heavily towards Option 2....but with a potential wrinkle -- I think the type of PE ticket I am buying would permit me to upgrade to biz class, if available.

I'm risking a $200 cancellation fee and $133 nonrefundable seat upgrade fee, but that nets me a single seat with nobody next to me.

If I'm reading their charts right, though, it is 64,000 SQ miles. OUCH! That's 2/3 of a damn biz class award ticket and I'm dropping almost $1500 already.

Likely moot, though, as I am not seeing any award availability.

The lack of lounge access bugged me until I realized there is a Priority Pass lounge right by the SQ lounge at Changi. Plus, my layover is pretty short.

I don't usually buy travel insurance for my flights (since I'm on an award ticket), but am considering it, given how much shit is still up in the air.

[sebastian0]

18 minutes ago, Luv2Phuket said:

IFWIW, 'm leaning heavily towards Option 2....but with a potential wrinkle -- I think the type of PE ticket I am buying would permit me to upgrade to biz class, if available.

I'm risking a $200 cancellation fee and $133 nonrefundable seat upgrade fee, but that nets me a single seat with nobody next to me.

If I'm reading their charts right, though, it is 64,000 SQ miles. OUCH! That's 2/3 of a damn biz class award ticket and I'm dropping almost $1500 already.

Likely moot, though, as I am not seeing any award availability.

The lack of lounge access bugged me until I realized there is a Priority Pass lounge right by the SQ lounge at Changi. Plus, my layover is pretty short.

I don't usually buy travel insurance for my flights (since I'm on an award ticket), but am considering it, given how much shit is still up in the air.

Is the award ticket not refundable? Only had experience with BA but usually they are. 

[Luv2Phuket]

1 hour ago, sebastian0 said:

Is the award ticket not refundable? Only had experience with BA but usually they are. 

Prior tickets -- and my return ticket -- are award tickets. This is a purchased ticket.

[SlowlyMan]

9 hours ago, Luv2Phuket said:

IFWIW, 'm leaning heavily towards Option 2....but with a potential wrinkle -- I think the type of PE ticket I am buying would permit me to upgrade to biz class, if available.

I'm risking a $200 cancellation fee and $133 nonrefundable seat upgrade fee, but that nets me a single seat with nobody next to me.

If I'm reading their charts right, though, it is 64,000 SQ miles. OUCH! That's 2/3 of a damn biz class award ticket and I'm dropping almost $1500 already.

Likely moot, though, as I am not seeing any award availability.

The lack of lounge access bugged me until I realized there is a Priority Pass lounge right by the SQ lounge at Changi. Plus, my layover is pretty short.

I don't usually buy travel insurance for my flights (since I'm on an award ticket), but am considering it, given how much shit is still up in the air.

What is this single seat you speak of. Haven't heard of that before.

[bgtp]

On 29/12/2021 at 22:13, Luv2Phuket said:

Option 2:
Book a OW ticket into Phuket in Premium Economy
This is the "middle-priced" option. Surprisingly, I can snag SQ PE for around $1500, factoring in an upgraded seat option (solo seat). About $350 of it would be nonrefundable. It would be PE from USA to SIN, but then Economy into Phuket (it's only a 2 hour flight).

Thoughts/opinions from the brain trust?

On 30/12/2021 at 08:40, SlowlyMan said:

If you still are determined to go, I would take option #2.

My thinking is anything less than lie-flat and you should have to turn in your Miles Whore Union card.

(just kidding)

Happy New Year everyone! May we all to get to LOS in '22

[Luv2Phuket]

3 hours ago, SlowlyMan said:

What is this single seat you speak of. Haven't heard of that before.

Neither had I!

Singapore PE (at least on this flight) is a 2-4-2 layout. At the back of the plane, they have 3 rows that are 1-4-1.

Looking at SeatGuru, the measurements appear comparable to the AA domestic first seat I just had:
AA A321 first (general data): Pitch: 36"; Width: 21"
SQ PE: Pitch 38"; Width: 19.5" (typical economy seat is 32" and 18", but this plane is only biz and PE)

The 1.5" of width is where the difference is REALLY felt. For comparison, the width of SQ biz class is 28".

I flew SQ PE LAX-ICN-LAX a few years ago on business. The cabin was fairly empty on one leg, and I was in an aisle seat in the middle section (4 seats). Because my row was empty, I moved to the 2 middle seats and lifted the arm rest to give me more width (only the armrest between the 2 middle seats was moveable - aisle seats and seats in outer sections had fixed armrests). The return flight from ICN was packed, so I could not do it.

If this flight has an empty middle section row, I might do the same, but I felt it was well worth the $133 upsell to NOT have someone needing to climb over me.

The other seats that required additional payment were the bulkhead seats in the two outer sections. Based on SeatGuru reader comments, you have virtually unlimited leg room, so the window seat passenger can get out without disturbing the aisle passenger. Two of those four seats were available for $114, but seat storage is limited (as opposed to the single seat aisle, which has extra storage).

I went ahead and purchased it last night. I wanted to wait a few days, but was paranoid the price would spike. It was over $1000 less than their other PE flights, so pretty clear it wasn't going to come down in price. Also, only 3 of the 6 "single seats" were available. 

I credited the miles (around 9500) to my SQ account. I could have credited them to my United account, but their availability has SUCKED lately and I keep using SQ. I don;t know if these miles already are included, but somehow I am close to SQ Silver status, whatever the fuck that entitles me to.

Question NOW becomes do I try to upgrade using SQ miles?

If I am reading their chart correctly, it is a whopping 64,000 miles. Essentially, the $1450 I paid would equate to the 31,000 mile difference for a biz class award seat (which were not even available for waitlist at this juncture) - that's 4.6 cents per mile....not exactly a great return.

I'm also really curious to see how I can endure in PE. Like I said, I slept like absolute shit on my last lie flat flight. Don't know if it could get worse. Plus, once I get to Phuket, I am "confined to quarters" until my PCR test comes back....nap time! 555

Here is the seat map from SeatGuru. I am in 40H.

40C and 41C appear to be the preferable options given the bathroom location, but all 3 of the C seats were taken.
 

 

[SlowlyMan]

1 hour ago, Luv2Phuket said:

Neither had I!

Singapore PE (at least on this flight) is a 2-4-2 layout. At the back of the plane, they have 3 rows that are 1-4-1.

Looking at SeatGuru, the measurements appear comparable to the AA domestic first seat I just had:
AA A321 first (general data): Pitch: 36"; Width: 21"
SQ PE: Pitch 38"; Width: 19.5" (typical economy seat is 32" and 18", but this plane is only biz and PE)

The 1.5" of width is where the difference is REALLY felt. For comparison, the width of SQ biz class is 28".

I flew SQ PE LAX-ICN-LAX a few years ago on business. The cabin was fairly empty on one leg, and I was in an aisle seat in the middle section (4 seats). Because my row was empty, I moved to the 2 middle seats and lifted the arm rest to give me more width (only the armrest between the 2 middle seats was moveable - aisle seats and seats in outer sections had fixed armrests). The return flight from ICN was packed, so I could not do it.

If this flight has an empty middle section row, I might do the same, but I felt it was well worth the $133 upsell to NOT have someone needing to climb over me.

The other seats that required additional payment were the bulkhead seats in the two outer sections. Based on SeatGuru reader comments, you have virtually unlimited leg room, so the window seat passenger can get out without disturbing the aisle passenger. Two of those four seats were available for $114, but seat storage is limited (as opposed to the single seat aisle, which has extra storage).

I went ahead and purchased it last night. I wanted to wait a few days, but was paranoid the price would spike. It was over $1000 less than their other PE flights, so pretty clear it wasn't going to come down in price. Also, only 3 of the 6 "single seats" were available. 

I credited the miles (around 9500) to my SQ account. I could have credited them to my United account, but their availability has SUCKED lately and I keep using SQ. I don;t know if these miles already are included, but somehow I am close to SQ Silver status, whatever the fuck that entitles me to.

Question NOW becomes do I try to upgrade using SQ miles?

If I am reading their chart correctly, it is a whopping 64,000 miles. Essentially, the $1450 I paid would equate to the 31,000 mile difference for a biz class award seat (which were not even available for waitlist at this juncture) - that's 4.6 cents per mile....not exactly a great return.

I'm also really curious to see how I can endure in PE. Like I said, I slept like absolute shit on my last lie flat flight. Don't know if it could get worse. Plus, once I get to Phuket, I am "confined to quarters" until my PCR test comes back....nap time! 555

Here is the seat map from SeatGuru. I am in 40H.

40C and 41C appear to be the preferable options given the bathroom location, but all 3 of the C seats were taken.
 

 

That makes more sense now. It's the ultra-Long haul configuration with PE all the way back. Thanks for that. Unfortunately, connections on Singapore out of Chicago are terrible. So, I've never flown them.

[Luv2Phuket]

Has anybody else tried to book a business class flight to Asia using United miles lately?

EVERY option I see is 180,000 miles ONE WAY. WTF?!?

There are occasional "mixed cabin" fares for less than 100,000 miles, but it's big "no thank you" from me to fly economy for a 6 hour leg when using that many miles. Hell, some mixed cabin tickets are showing as 180,000 miles.

I have resigned myself to thinking the 100,000 United miles that I have are pretty damn worthless at this juncture.

I also have stopped crediting Star Alliance flights to United and now credit them to Singapore.

Even Singapore seems to be "taking the piss" (as our Brit members might say), by killing almost all 95,000 mile awards and pushing towards 125,000 each way.

[briguy]

22 minutes ago, Luv2Phuket said:

I have resigned myself to thinking the 100,000 United miles that I have are pretty damn worthless at this juncture.

Just took a look at the Mileage Plus website. Don't think I've seen a separate category for Business (Mixed Cabin) before. Anyway, United/Star Alliance flights in business going to Asia are as high points -wise as you say, but coming back from Asia, I saw some one way flights in business for 90,000 miles, so you could use your points for the return trip. They had flights by ANA and Thai/United.

[Luv2Phuket]

30 minutes ago, briguy said:

Just took a look at the Mileage Plus website. Don't think I've seen a separate category for Business (Mixed Cabin) before. Anyway, United/Star Alliance flights in business going to Asia are as high points -wise as you say, but coming back from Asia, I saw some one way flights in business for 90,000 miles, so you could use your points for the return trip. They had flights by ANA and Thai/United.

SWEET!  I'll take a look

I locked in AA going over and coming back, but the dates kinda sucked.

Panicked that my February trip will go bust, so looking around Memorial Day/my birthday in early June.....a naked Thai girl or two is ALWAYS a great birthday present to myself! 555

EDIT:

Thanks! I found some options on the way back. One problem I was running into was the connection from wherever first landing point was (LAX or DEN) to Las vegas. It pops from 99k to 180k if you want that leg in first! 5555

Trying to decide which itinerary is "less bad"! 555  A flight 2 days earlier (I prefer that) which has an 8-hour layover in Tokyo OR the later flight which only has a 6-hour layover.

I'll probably book both and sort it out later! 555

[bgtp]

1 hour ago, Luv2Phuket said:

Thanks! I found some options on the way back. One problem I was running into was the connection from wherever first landing point was (LAX or DEN) to Las vegas. It pops from 99k to 180k if you want that leg in first! 5555

Trying to decide which itinerary is "less bad"! 555  A flight 2 days earlier (I prefer that) which has an 8-hour layover in Tokyo OR the later flight which only has a 6-hour layover.

I'll probably book both and sort it out later! 555

That domestic leg can really increase the mileage requirement on UA awards. Good that you can get that leg in economy at the lower rate as sometimes even just getting that leg in economy causes the big increase. This happens when there is no 'saver' award availability for that leg and it pulls from 'everyday' award availability which then causes the whole itinerary to be priced at the 'everyday' level. Sucks that the short domestic leg causes this, but it is what it is. I recall this happening when using Delta awards as well. When you can't get either first or economy without the big miles increase, one solution is to buy the domestic leg yourself and save the 80K+ miles. Another thing that helps is having the Mileage Plus Explorer card or similar as this opens up additional economy saver award space on domestic flights as a benefit for cardholders. It doesn't work for the no annual fee card. My last trip on a UA award, this benefit got me on my final leg home and I was OK with economy for the one hour flight.

I've gotten into the habit of pricing out international gateway to BKK first, just to see what's available. Then I start playing with the domestic leg. I also think part of the problem now could be fewer flights by United and other Star Alliance airlines resulting in less award availability.

[Luv2Phuket]

Just now, bgtp said:

That domestic leg can really increase the mileage requirement on UA awards. Good that you can get that leg in economy at the lower rate as sometimes even just getting that leg in economy causes the big increase. This happens when there is no 'saver' award availability for that leg and it pulls from 'everyday' award availability which then causes the whole itinerary to be priced at the 'everyday' level. Sucks that the short domestic leg causes this, but it is what it is. I recall this happening when using Delta awards as well. When you can't get either first or economy without the big miles increase, one solution is to buy the domestic leg yourself and save the 80K+ miles. Another thing that helps is having the Mileage Plus Explorer card or similar as this opens up additional economy saver award space on domestic flights as a benefit for cardholders. It doesn't work for the no annual fee card. My last trip on a UA award, this benefit got me on my final leg home and I was OK with economy for the one hour flight.

I've gotten into the habit of pricing out international gateway to BKK first, just to see what's available. Then I start playing with the domestic leg. I also think part of the problem now could be fewer flights by United and other Star Alliance airlines resulting in less award availability.

I have to use the "buy the domestic leg" to use Singapore awards. 

I can price out a ticket using codeshares, but not award flights.

[bgtp]

2 minutes ago, Luv2Phuket said:

I have to use the "buy the domestic leg" to use Singapore awards. 

I can price out a ticket using codeshares, but not award flights.

By 'price' I meant cost in miles for an award. So, instead of searching for a LAS-BKK award, try searching for LAX/SFO/DEN-BKK first without the domestic leg and see what pops up for how many miles.

[Luv2Phuket]

47 minutes ago, bgtp said:

By 'price' I meant cost in miles for an award. So, instead of searching for a LAS-BKK award, try searching for LAX/SFO/DEN-BKK first without the domestic leg and see what pops up for how many miles.

Yep. What I meant was SQ never has award trips from Las Vegas, but you can book a paid flight from here with ease (as I just did).

I think it is a glitch in their award system that you cannot book mixed cabin itineraries for award travel (so the economy legs to LAX/SFO kill any award availability)

[sebastian0]

Just now, Luv2Phuket said:

Yep. What I meant was SQ never has award trips from Las Vegas, but you can book a paid flight from here with ease (as I just did).

I think it is a glitch in their award system that you cannot book mixed cabin itineraries for award travel (so the economy legs to LAX/SFO kill any award availability)

I found most award booking system glitchy to be honest, if you are serious about a trip, it’s easier to call them to check what’s actually available. 
That said I haven’t been able to talk to a real person even on BA gold line these days. 

[Luv2Phuket]

48 minutes ago, sebastian0 said:

I found most award booking system glitchy to be honest, if you are serious about a trip, it’s easier to call them to check what’s actually available. 
That said I haven’t been able to talk to a real person even on BA gold line these days. 

Oddly enough, I did call Singapore today. I was on hold for about 45 minutes, then, right as it hit 5 p.m. (PST), the call went silent, and I was connected to their "satisfaction survey."

Needless to say, my feedback was not positive! 555

 

[bgtp]

6 hours ago, Luv2Phuket said:

Yep. What I meant was SQ never has award trips from Las Vegas, but you can book a paid flight from here with ease (as I just did).

I think it is a glitch in their award system that you cannot book mixed cabin itineraries for award travel (so the economy legs to LAX/SFO kill any award availability)

Gotcha. I remember you posting about that before regarding Singapore. I was referring to how I look for rewards using United miles. I remember one time with United, I had a nice itinerary but couldn’t get the last ORD-SAV leg. Instead, I was able to make my last leg on that award ORD-CLT, then I used Avios for CLT-SAV. I was OK with that …. until I had to cancel the trip 555.

[briguy]

On 05/01/2022 at 18:13, Luv2Phuket said:

One problem I was running into was the connection from wherever first landing point was (LAX or DEN) to Las Vegas.

Considering it's $ 78 RT from Vegas to LA on just about every airline, it might just be easier for you to buy a separate flight to get you to LAX and back.

[travelling_man]

On 05/01/2022 at 19:21, Luv2Phuket said:

Has anybody else tried to book a business class flight to Asia using United miles lately?

EVERY option I see is 180,000 miles ONE WAY. WTF?!?

Hi @Luv2Phuket, I know you are a seasoned points traveler so I might not be telling you anything new, but ...

I have a booked itinerary in front of me -- trip from USA to BKK with one stop, business class, total travel time 22h25m, ROUND-TRIP for 189,000 miles.  The record doesn't show but I *think* it was 99,000 TO BKK and 90,000 from BKK.

As I'm sure you know, the key is to 1) check every day 2) move your departure and return days up-and-down a week and the worst part, 3) be willing to accept routes that aren't your preferred routes (or as you mentioned, contain long layovers)

95% of all business flights were 180,000 ONE WAY or were not available at all - just like you said.  

[jmukh]

On 05/01/2022 at 20:21, Luv2Phuket said:

I have resigned myself to thinking the 100,000 United miles that I have are pretty damn worthless at this juncture.

Completely off topic for your current trip, but I'm considering starting to collect United miles this year for further adventures in S. and C. America. The free third leg on award tickets means being able to put together some itineraries that would normally be fairly expensive (adding Peru to a Colombia trip, or adding Argentina to a Brazil trip) for free. So far, I've been taking JetBlue to Medellin on points, then AA back (Amex Plat for the 5x, plus incidental charges for checked luggage). 

I made the mistake of booking Copa for the return leg of my current trip; never again. The reservation showed up as "there's a change to this itinerary, please call us" = two phone calls with 2.5 hour hold times ending with a disconnection. I just ate the loss, was a no-show for the flight, and rebooked to an AA flight since I wanted to extend this trip anyway. My only hesitation with United in S. America now is that the vast majority of the connections I've looked at involve Copa.

At the prices you're seeing, it may be worth either repositioning to LAX on your own to get a more reasonable points price, or save that stash for the next time you get a hankering for latinas.

[Little Evil]

I just cancelled my Feb trip. Uncertain about the current state of affairs and my trip is too short to jump through any hoops. My short trips (2 weeks or under) might be a thing of the past for the foreseeable future. I think this is the third cancellation I've made throughout all of this. Sucks too, because I was going to finally try those new Qatar Q suites. 

Tried to reschedule for later this year, but noticed point values or pricing has gone through the roof on my legs, or they tried to switch one long leg out with coach. F-that. Will just get a refund and plan again.

Ended up going to CR last time. Fun for a while, but not nearly the same. Sorry I don't have anything positive to add, but I needed to vent this out with people who understand the struggle.