After 6 years of BareBacking i Just Got My Results Back.

[scj]

Did you bang your head this morning Perthie?

 

1% (or 1.5%, but lets take your figure) is the infected population, not the chance of contracting HIV. That would imply having sex with an HIV infected individual has a 100% transmission rate. The often quoted transmission rate per encounter is around 0.001%. That means that the probability of contracting HIV from sex with a random individual in Thailand is 0.00001% or 1 in 100 000.

 

Peace.

 

A true Statistician. Well said. In researching this I discovered about the same probability. Still to the point, if you Monger around, put a glove it up. Not worth it being the unfortunate 1 of 100,000

[El Cata]

A true Statistician. Well said. In researching this I discovered about the same probability. Still to the point, if you Monger around, put a glove it up. Not worth it being the unfortunate 1 of 100,000

My stats are neither an endorsement nor a warning, only a statement of fact (or perception but let's not get into that).

 

We all live by our own choices.

 

Peace.

[RobG]

I had a bit of a scare too when I went with a BG while in BKK. We messed around bareback. I thought for sue i had caught something. It's been over a year and nothing though. Hope I lucked out!

[El Cata]

Well they're anacdotes from the perspective of an outsider but not for those ditrectly involved. Telling a 19 year old girl that her ex-boyfriend was HIV+ (He'd asked me to) and seeing her in tears later that day because she'd just found out that she was to is pretty convincing when you experience it first hand although anecdotal as soon as the memory is shared.

Personal experiences affect us greatly, I know this first hand. However, with respect, these personal experiences or anecdotes are the very reason to take a step back & take emotions / personal biases out of the equation.

 

If a black man punches me on the nose, then I might think that all black men are violent. Then two black men walk up to me & give me £10. I might then think that some black men are violent but some are generous. Without personally experiencing every black man (and every emotional state that they're in, but I digress) I will no doubt form a wrong opinion about them. What if I only meet the third who are bad, or vice versa? I will form diametrically opposed opinions, without a deeper understanding. Taking human nature into account, I would suggest that most people would form the opinion that 90%+ black people are violent, based on the above scenario, because of the emotional significance of the first event.

 

In your case, you have undoubtedly met less people who are infected with HIV than are not, but your emotional reaction has led to a 'skewing' of the statistics toward the upper end.

 

Good point about those randomised controlled trials. By it's nature 'controlled' means that they take place in situations a million milesd away from the mayhem of Pattaya where, drinks, drugs, other STD's, multiple partners are all potential or even likely co-factors. My point is I wouldn't take the statistics gleaned from these trials as bering particularly relevent for mongering in Thailand.

'Controlled' actually refers to placebo controls. If you are trying to find out if a treatment works, you seperate the subjects into two groups, one which takes the drug & one which does not. The reason for this is that the act of taking the drug, receiving care from the doctor etc can have a healing effect by itself. Research has shown that people who make an appointment to see the doctor immediately display a reduction in symptoms e.g. lower blood pressure. Anyway, I'm going on a bit, I'll shut up now.

 

Peace.

Edited August 27, 2010 by El Cata

[Dr.Winston]

Personal experiences affect us greatly, I know this first hand. However, with respect, these personal experiences or anecdotes are the very reason to take a step back & take emotions / personal biases out of the equation.

 

If a black man punches me on the nose, then I might think that all black men are violent. Then two black men walk up to me & give me £10. I might then think a third of black men are violent but two thirds are generous. Without personally experiencing every black man (and every emotional state that they're in, but I digress) I will no doubt form a wrong opinion about them. What if I only meet the third who are bad, or vice versa? I will form diametrically opposed opinions, without a deeper understanding.

 

In your case, you have undoubtedly met less people who are infected with HIV than are not, but your emotional reaction has led to a 'skewing' of the statistics toward the upper end.

 

 

'Controlled' actually refers to placebo controls. If you are trying to find out if a treatment works, you seperate the subjects into two groups, one which takes the drug & one which does not. The reason for this is that the act of taking the drug, receiving care from the doctor etc can have a healing effect by itself. Research has shown that people who make an appointment to see the doctor immediately display a reduction in symptoms e.g. lower blood pressure. Anyway, I'm going on a bit, I'll shut up now.

 

Peace.

Actually personal experiences are what makes things real for me rather than skewing my perspective. I relly on common sense when interpreting them, for example I've had bad nights with BG's before but realise that this is the exception rather than the rule. More to the point is that fact that our own experiences are unique to us but anectdotal to others, which incidentally is why I trust my personal experiences over that of others. Again, common sense has to come into play. If I disregarded the experiences of others because they are anecdotal then a lot of the knowledge I've picked up from books, for example would have to be disgarded. My point is that there's wheat and chaff in both anecdotes and statistics and I don't think it's wise to disregard, or blindly believe either, the process by which I seperate the two is largely guided by my own reference experiences.

 

Controlled also refers to controlled situations where factors are known i.e. a married couple, who are faithful to each other and are known to be free of any other factors known to change the risks of transmission.

[El Cata]

Actually personal experiences are what makes things real for me rather than skewing my perspective. I relly on common sense when interpreting them, for example I've had bad nights with BG's before but realise that this is the exception rather than the rule.

Can you clarify what you mean by 'common sense'. The problem regarding common sense is that everybody has it, yet doesn't. What is it? What the majority thinks? The ability to make small connections between large concepts? Einstein defined common sense as 'the collection of preduces acquired at age 18'. This is very telling! IMO common sense is what you say that someone else is lacking when you have run out of cogent arguments.

 

More to the point is that fact that our own experiences are unique to us but anectdotal to others, which incidentally is why I trust my personal experiences over that of others. Again, common sense has to come into play.

Our own experiences are unique, but infinetely close to other's experiences. This has been understood for the last hundred years by scientists, sociologists & psychologists. Every first year undergraduate psychology class is given the same quiz every year. It consists of a reading by an astrologist, which are all the same. The students are then asked to rate the reading & give it a score out of 5 for accuracy. The score, year on year, for the last sixty years has been 4.2. We are all the same! As soon as you realise that, you will then become different.

 

If I disregarded the experiences of others because they are anecdotal then a lot of the knowledge I've picked up from books, for example would have to be disgarded. My point is that there's wheat and chaff in both anecdotes and statistics and I don't think it's wise to disregard, or blindly believe either, the process by which I seperate the two is largely guided by my own reference experiences.

The same applies here, but we can't create a planet full of interacting falangs & Thais & observe / experiment on them. A book has some value, as it has gone through a vetting process. This forum however, needs to be taken with a kilo of salt. A collection of anecdotes, no matter how large, does not a theory make. However, this is the best we have.

 

Controlled also refers to controlled situations where factors are known i.e. a married couple, who are faithful to each other and are known to be free of any other factors known to change the risks of transmission.

I don't want to get bogged down by semantics. I used the term 'controlled' in it's narrowly defined scientific sense.

 

Peace.

[Woofiee]

Ah Christ...a semantic-stician. You're using semantics to change the discussion, in order to "win" the point or poo-poo the other opinion.

 

Frankly, I don't care - every monger and girl have to make up their own minds - but I really hate being misrepresented, so let's get a few things straight before this conversation twists further:

I assume that you're talking about the figures here, please provide a link in future:

 

http://www.avert.org...h-east-asia.htm

 

Please note that you replied to post #36, in which I supplied both that link and a newer, more updated link (June 2010, as per Google) specifically on Thailand. Your link included all of SE Asia (Thailand, Myanmar, Cambodia, Vietnam and Laos).

 

 

 

The prevalence is ~1:100 (or 1.4%), but the transmission rate per encounter is 1:1000, which is what I based my figures on. The probability of contracting HIV from vaginal penetrative sex with a random woman in Thailand is

 

1: 100 000.

 

Peace.

And again, we were talking about infection rates, not transmission rates.

 

 

• Infection rates concern the possibility of an encounter with a HIV-infected Thai. ~1:100 is both higher than previously reported in 2003 & 1994. It is a significant number.

• Your transmission rate of 1:1000 - where did you get this number from? It's not on either the Avert Thailand or SE Asia page, but your end-result of 1:100,000 is likely incorrect.

 

What current numbers I can find show a different result:

 

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV#Transmission

• 38:10,000 chance of HIV transmission "Low-income country female-to-male"

• 30:10,000 chance of HIV transmission "Low-income country male-to-female"

- and comparatively,

• 30:10,000 chance of HIV transmission "Percutaneous needle stick"

• 67;10,000 chance of HIV transmission "Needle-sharing injection drug use"

 

Avert.org Thailand page: http://www.avert.org/thailand-aids-hiv.htm

• In a government study for Bangkok in 2007, HIV prevalence among freelance sex workers in Bangkok was 19 percent whereas HIV prevalence had declined to 4.3 percent in CSEs (commercial sex establishments) in that year.

• The percentage of sex workers who have had an HIV test and know their results has declined; whereas around half of sex workers surveyed had been tested in the past 12 months in 2007, this had dropped to around a third in 2009.

 

Again, this is only the chance of transmission - if you try on a freelancer and catch it the first time...hey - sucks to be you.

 

Statistics can inform as easily as they scare or embolden. The thing to remember is that you choose your fate; if you rely on these stats to bag up, fine. If you use some other stat to justify freeing willy, also fine...your choice, and you get the consequences. Just make it an informed decision.

[Dr.Winston]

Can you clarify what you mean by 'common sense'. The problem regarding common sense is that everybody has it, yet doesn't. What is it? What the majority thinks? The ability to make small connections between large concepts? Einstein defined common sense as 'the collection of preduces acquired at age 18'. This is very telling! IMO common sense is what you say that someone else is lacking when you have run out of cogent arguments.

 

 

Our own experiences are unique, but infinetely close to other's experiences. This has been understood for the last hundred years by scientists, sociologists & psychologists. Every first year undergraduate psychology class is given the same quiz every year. It consists of a reading by an astrologist, which are all the same. The students are then asked to rate the reading & give it a score out of 5 for accuracy. The score, year on year, for the last sixty years has been 4.2. We are all the same! As soon as you realise that, you will then become different.

 

 

The same applies here, but we can't create a planet full of interacting falangs & Thais & observe / experiment on them. A book has some value, as it has gone through a vetting process. This forum however, needs to be taken with a kilo of salt. A collection of anecdotes, no matter how large, does not a theory make. However, this is the best we have.

 

 

I don't want to get bogged down by semantics. I used the term 'controlled' in it's narrowly defined scientific sense.

 

Peace.

No, I don't either. I've related my real ife experiences (anecdotes from your perspective) to you. You either believe them or see them as valid or not, cool with me either way.

[unlucky1]

I assume that you're talking about the figures here, please provide a link in future:

 

http://www.avert.org/aids-hiv-south-east-asia.htm

 

The prevalence is ~1:100 (or 1.4%), but the transmission rate per encounter is 1:1000, which is what I based my figures on. The probability of contracting HIV from vaginal penetrative sex with a random woman in Thailand is

 

1: 100 000.

 

Peace.

 

1 in a 1000 of a random women but if you haven't been circumcised, have had a previous STI nad if the bar girl has an existing STI and if she has been recently infected that figure could be 1 in 5, if you get it after 1 session then it's been 100% hasn't it?

 

HIV isn't an average disease - lots of other factors

[Harry Brown]

Of course that would include all the encounters with BG's that don't have HIV and therefore couldn't possibly pass it on as well as all the encounters where condoms are used which greatly reduces the risk. I suppose the lesson is that statistics can be presented in many different ways and still be 'true' I think another way of looking at it is that perhaps one shouldn't be dazzled by either large nor small odds.

 

I gave up trying to play the game of statistics when it comes to HIV long ago, I got fed up with finding statistics that backed up my opinions on the risks no matter what my opinions might have been at any time. Do a google search on HIV being hard to contract for heterosexuals and you'll find all the supporting evidence you'll ever need to let your mind be at ease. Google on the risks and you'll end up paranoid.

 

There's so much rubbish out there ranging from Government advertising campaigns that exagerated the risks so much that it has now rebounded on them to people who'll claim that it's impossible to contract unless.............

 

These days I trust my personal experience and observations more. All the girls in the next village who've died of it, all the men who've died of it. It's amazing how many long term ex-pats know about guys who've contracted it. Of course then there's my two friends.

 

My personal conclusion to it all could be summed up as 'bag up and don't worry about it'

 

What about if the dude caught it from the first girl and went on to have sex with the other 99,000 .... Whats that sayin statisics and statistics and damn lies.

[Helios]

I was shitting myself and you called it perfectly it was only chlamydia, 10 days treatment and it will be gone. Can you believe it? is it that hard to get hiv? my bare backing days are over i have been given a lifeline here.I even got a good result for my prostate which is good too.

 

Easier said than done. Didn't you know HIV and Alcohol have a lifelong contract together. Once that alcohol is flowing through those veins of yours, your judgment slowly starts to collapse. Here's 6 more years of continuing bare backing. Maybe you should put on the condom before you hit the clubs and just walk around protected already. lol. Glad your safe bro.

[JD1]

I had a blood test for Hiv Hep b and c, Syphilis and a piss test for a couple of other things. Anyway i got a phone call from the doctor today and told me he needs to talk to me, i thought oh shit i have got Hiv. Here is my list of bare backing in the last 6 years. virginal sex at least 30 times anal about 20 times and bbbj at least 100 times why would i not be Hiv positive maybe even hep c. So you guys would most likely know the result, what a stupid prick i must of been to do such a foolish and dumb thing, even knowing the risks especially in pattaya of all places.

 

Your doctor wants to tell you in person that your an idiot!

Seriously for your sake I hope your test results are negative for everything but what were you thinking?

Do your self a favor and bag up.

 

Good luck

JD

[Helios]

Glad you've come to your senses and stopped barebacking but your quote 'All of those girls are bar girls so they should have a check up very often if they dont then they dont care about their health' is a bit naive, as a lot of the girls aren't tested by the bar they work for and will not pay for themselves to get tested as they believe they have better things to spend their money on. Do you really think that the girl in your avatar gale as I pronounce it(keaw or kaew as she spells her name) gets tested by her bar every month?

I'd like to think that she does get tested either by the bar or by herself as she's one of the more clued up bar girls I've met.

 

IMO, these girls are more worried about pregnancy rather than any STD. I'm sure a lot of them would rather not get an STD if given the choice, at least I hope so, but some of these girls don't get paid enough. A monthly std would check is just money thrown away to them. T

 

There's two things we can do as mongers to protect ourselves: Stop being sluts or strap your dick up nice and snugly. If and when the condom breaks, pull it out as fast as possible. A 10 second orgasm isn't worth years and years of heartache.

[coloredgem23]

Wow. You are lucky!!! Id recommend more frequent testing from here on out...even though you will ALWAYS use condoms and your current tests are negative....

 

yeah thats right ALWAYS!!!!!!! (from a perfect stranger) good luck to ya!!!!

[stephen_l]

I just finished my antibiotics course for chlamydia so not sure if i need another urine test to confirm its gone. In 3 months time i will have a follow up on hiv, hep b,c that will take it to 7 months since my last sexual contact, should be 100% sure then?

[Piotrus_PL]

I understand using a condom for sex but for BJ do we really need to?

I never visited Pattaya yet but i did vist many other countries. I had allot of girls over time and never used a condom for BJ. So far no problem with any health issues.

Then again..looks like Pattaya is a whole different place..

Do you guys use condoms for BJ??

 

cheers

[robertplant634]

I understand using a condom for sex but for BJ do we really need to?

I never visited Pattaya yet but i did vist many other countries. I had allot of girls over time and never used a condom for BJ. So far no problem with any health issues.

Then again..looks like Pattaya is a whole different place..

Do you guys use condoms for BJ??

 

cheers

 

Yes, you can still get STDs from BBBJ. The risk is less than penetrative sex, but it is still there. I've met a few people who have gotten Gonorrhea from BBBJ.

 

http://www.sexetc.org/faq/std/1009

 

http://www.stanford.edu/group/SHPRC/ch4_ora.html

 

Many people are unclear on the risks associated with oral sex. Questions about oral sex and the risk of contracting an STD are very common in outreaches and at the SHPRC. Many people engage in unprotected oral sex, and are particularly concerned with the risks associated with not using protection.

 

What are the risks:

 

* Herpes is probably the biggest STD risk during oral sex. Both strains of herpes can live in the mouth or the genitals, and particularly during outbreaks (cold sores, herpes lesions) can be passed from one place to the other. Many people have oral herpes, more than 50% of a random group of people will have antibodies to the virus (indicating some level of infection). Having oral herpes for most people is no big deal, a cold sore during times of stress or illness is usually little more than an annoyance. Genital herpes can be more complicated and uncomfortable, but there are treatments (see Herpes Fact Sheet for more info). Care should be taken so that oral herpes are not passed to anyone’s genitals. In general it is not a good idea to have unprotected oral sex while any lesions are present.

* Chlamydia and gonorrhea can infect your throat, strep like symptoms, and are curable with antibiotics. These can also infect the eye, and though rare, eye infections can have serious consequences, so be careful with fluids.

* HIV can be passed through unprotected oral sex, but it is more likely to be passed during unprotected penetrative sex. The infected semen/precum or vaginal fluid must enter the body through a cut or sore in the mouth or esophagus. The virus is unlikely to be passed from a person’s mouth to another person’s genitals.

* HPV can be passed during oral sex, but it is rare. HPV has been found on vocal chords.

* Syphilis can be passed similar to HIV. Syphilis is curable.

* Hepatitis A is a risk particularly in oral-anal sex, and people engaging in this unprotected might want to look into getting a Hep A vaccine. Hep A is not a chronic condition like Hep B and C, but can make a person quite sick several weeks.

[Piotrus_PL]

it is hard to contract HIV from vaginal sex. However it only takes one time.

 

1:204 people in Thailand are now HIV positive - thats a VERY high ratio.

 

If I were you I would be thinking I had used up 8 or my 9 lives and would bag up now. Sods Law is a strange thing!

 

 

Bag up even for the blow jobs?? :(

[themosch]

We all know that using a condom is the right way

BUT

I can fully understand why barebackers,fulltime or occasionals(=including me), do it with out condom. It just takes the fun away IMO. But last trip a friend of me got chlamydia as well back home. So that was the warning light for us! Next time will try to use condom always even as it will give less fun(feeling) but i hope to have some more trips to LOS and not to a HIV-clinic instead!

[hazze]

the chances of catch hiv, even from sex with an infected person are quite low.

 

But as has been said, you only have to be unlucky once....

 

Glad your ok mate.

I've been there myself. Got a call from an ex that she was just back from the docs and she caught HPV of me.

The line wasn't good and the first few times she said it I nearly shit out my own heart!

HPV isn't that bad and goes away over time. But it was a bit of a wakeup call.

 

WHne your back home and going through all this, you really wish you'd bagged up.

[cloakxxx]

the chances of catch hiv, even from sex with an infected person are quite low.

 

But as has been said, you only have to be unlucky once....

 

Glad your ok mate.

I've been there myself. Got a call from an ex that she was just back from the docs and she caught HPV of me.

The line wasn't good and the first few times she said it I nearly shit out my own heart!

HPV isn't that bad and goes away over time. But it was a bit of a wakeup call.

 

WHne your back home and going through all this, you really wish you'd bagged up.

 

 

i dont want to hijack the thread here, but how does she know you gave it to her. to the best of my knowledge it is untestable in males. and can be dormant/undetectable in females for extended periods. unless she was a virgin she could have gotten it from anyone right? any medically versed individuals can clarify?

[hazze]

i dont want to hijack the thread here, but how does she know you gave it to her. to the best of my knowledge it is untestable in males. and can be dormant/undetectable in females for extended periods. unless she was a virgin she could have gotten it from anyone right? any medically versed individuals can clarify?

 

Your right mate.

There is no guarantee she got it from me.

It can transfer even with a condom and lay dormant.

They reckon most of the sexuly active population in the west get it at some point in their lives.

 

Odds are it was me because I had way more parters.

But your right, she can't know for sure.

[maimeepanhaa]

Bag up even for the blow jobs?? :(

 

Rarely but 'up to you'

[superhans]

 

The prevalence is ~1:100 (or 1.4%), but the transmission rate per encounter is 1:1000, which is what I based my figures on. The probability of contracting HIV from vaginal penetrative sex with a random woman in Thailand is

 

1: 100 000.

 

Peace.

 

Why does this ridiculous 1-2% infection rate figure keep getting thrown around. The number is correct, but its irrelevant. Obviously the rate for the average Thai person which includes men and children is going to be far, far lower than the rate for BGs who are having sex with hundreds of different men a year.

Edited September 26, 2010 by superhans

[El Cata]

Why does this ridiculous 1-2% infection rate figure keep getting thrown around. The number is correct, but its irrelevant. Obviously the rate for the average Thai person which includes men and children is going to be far, far lower than the rate for BGs who are having sex with hundreds of different men a year.

I would argue that the infection rate is lower in Pattaya, due to the high use of condoms. I know, both from anecdote & studies, that the prevalence of HIV is far greater in 'the village', because most men have never even heard of a condom, never mind even worn one.

 

Why do you think that the recent trials of a new HIV vaccine were trialled in Isaan?

 

Peace.