http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8602449.stm

 

A British man and woman jailed in Dubai for kissing in public have lost their appeal against their conviction.

 

Ayman Najafi, 24, and Charlotte Adams, 25, were sentenced to a month in prison with subsequent deportation and fined about £200 for drinking alcohol.

 

The pair were arrested in November after a local woman accused them of breaking the country's decency laws by kissing on the mouth in a restaurant.

 

Najafi said he was "very disappointed". The pair plan to make a second appeal.

 

The initial complaint against them was made by a 38-year-old woman who said she was offended by their behaviour at the Jumeirah Beach Residence, where she was dining with her daughter.

 

'Very harsh'

 

The pair's defence lawyers said the woman - who did not appear in court - had not seen the kiss herself, but had been told by her two-year-old child that the girl had seen them kissing.

 

 

Magdi Abdelhadi, BBC News

Dubai looks very Western with its gleaming apartment blocks and super modern shopping malls. The Western façade can, however, lull the unsuspecting visitor into believing that it is also a liberal society.

 

And that appears to be primarily why Western visitors have recently fallen foul of the law there.

 

Scratch the modern surface and you discover a conservative Muslim culture, arguably far more so than many others in the Middle East.

 

Consumption of alcohol is restricted to a small number of places, mainly for Western visitors and expatriates.

 

Although there is no strict separation of the sexes as in neighbouring Saudi Arabia, the boundaries for what you can and cannot do in public can be tricky, especially for outsiders. While an unmarried Western couple can share a room in a hotel - or even live together - they are expected to observe local custom when outside their home.

 

So sentencing a couple for having kissed in public may be shocking for Western public opinion, but will most likely be applauded in conservative Arab societies, especially where there is a perception that Westerners are often expected to be given a preferential treatment.

 

The defendants also claimed they had merely kissed each other on the cheek, and therefore had not broken any laws.

 

The BBC's Ben Thompson, at the court, said the judge spoke entirely in Arabic as he quickly dismissed the appeal, saying he upheld the previous sentence.

 

They were fined 1,000 dirhams, which is about £200. They now have 30 days to appeal.

 

It was left to the defence lawyer to explain the verdict to Najafi and Adams.

 

Najafi said after the case: "It's very harsh, based on contradictory evidence. The courts haven't called on any of our witnesses who are prepared to testify that this didn't happen."

 

His mother, Ayman Najafi, told the BBC her son had grown up in the UK and was used to common British greetings.

 

"Maybe they think he should know better because he's from a Muslim family but Ayman grew up in this country, and that's the normal greeting... in this country," she said.

 

The pair decided not to start their sentence immediately, but the Dubai authorities are holding their passports so they are unable to return to Britain.

 

Professor John Strawson, an expert in Islamic law, told BBC Radio 5 Live he was not surprised by the judge's decision.

 

He said: "The problem in this particular case is that one of the British citizens is of Muslim origin.

 

"And I think that the combination of the alleged kissing and the consumption of alcohol in an illegal place, meant that this was a case that the authorities really wanted to pursue, and they are probably sticking to their rigid interpretation of the law."

 

Professor Strawson said the Dubai authorities often turned a blind eye to foreigners' behaviour, because of the high income that comes from tourists.

 

But he said Dubai had recently issued new explanations tightening up their laws.

 

'Cultural differences'

 

The Foreign Office advises Britons going to Dubai, which is part of the United Arab Emirates, to be wary of breaching local customs.

 

A statement on the its travel advice website reads: "Britons can find themselves facing charges relating to cultural differences, such as using bad language, rude gestures or public displays of affection."

 

Najafi, from north London, had been working for marketing firm Hay Group in Dubai for about 18 months.

 

The case is the latest in a series of incidents over recent years in which foreigners have broken Dubai's strict decency laws.

 

In March, an Indian couple in their 40s were sentenced to three months in jail in Dubai after sending each other sexually explicit text messages.

 

In 2008, two Britons accused of having sex on a beach in Dubai were sentenced to three months in jail, though the sentences were later suspended.

As i have been working in Afghanistan for 6 years it is best to learn arabic laws and foolow them if you are a nwestern or u can find yourself in big trouble like this couple. there was acouple doing it on the beach inDubai last year that were told by a policeman to stop. they did not and were in jail for a while. they lost there job fined and deported also.

Ah well....

 

In UK they had better not sell their Goldfish to a minor...£1000 fine and electronic tagging.

 

You really have to be careful in these states as they are vey conservative muslim and we have to remember they make the laws in their own country.

 

It does seem ridiculous though.

Edited April 4, 201016 yr by Frugal Charles

Middle ages .

I agree that these transgressions are silly and inconsequential by my western standards but I admit it is their country. I wonder why the guy in question did not know better since he had been working in Dubai for 28 months?

 

As my grandmother always said--- "When you play -- you got to pay". Rather harsh though, but better than public caning.

their contry their law , but why the fook would you wanna go for a holiday in a place like that ?

its a shame the british dont stick to their laws like this instead of letting the foreigners make up the rules to suit themselves.

I agree that these transgressions are silly and inconsequential by my western standards but I admit it is their country. I wonder why the guy in question did not know better since he had been working in Dubai for 28 months?

 

As my grandmother always said--- "When you play -- you got to pay". Rather harsh though, but better than public caning.

 

 

There is not something like " my country you're country " .

 

These are a bunch of terrorists/dictators who keep the majority ignorant ,

indoctrinate them , threaten to kill them or there family to make them live

how they want them to live .

You see what happens when they come to Europa or the US , the second generation

changes there minds pretty quick when they see what freedom looks like and how

life can be to .

Edited April 5, 201016 yr by jerry

Ethichs and morality are in the eyes of the beerholder.

I agree with their country their rules but to add to that I can also see what is going to happen when the Oil runs out or an alternative is found to oil over that part of the world - no reason to go there.

 

There are other places in the world that has the same tax incentive, better weather year round (not 40+ most of the year then a f%&king huge sand storm) and allow a more liberal lifestyle. These countries have two choices: move along with the rest of the civilised world or be left behind in the desert living the same way they have for the past 2000 odd years.

There is not something like " my country you're country " .

 

These are a bunch of terrorists/dictators who keep the majority ignorant ,

indoctrinate them , threaten to kill them or there family to make them live

how they want them to live .

You see what happens when they come to Europa or the US , the second generation

changes there minds pretty quick when they see what freedom looks like and how

life can be to .

I agree with dudebrah ----- who would want to go to a place like that;

You and BigReg bring up a very important fact. If I go to another country, I should obey their laws and respect their customs. Like wise, when foreigners ( including muslims ) come to the USA or UK they need to fit into our society, not force us to change to their ways. Not sure if the liberal politicians just want the votes or want to be looked at and admired as "World Citizens". They need to stop rimming the arses of foreign interests. Sorry, back off my soap box

The Foreign Office says on their website

Proportionally, Britons are most likely to be arrested in the UAE than any other country in the world.

 

So what do you expect? They have laws and you need to keep to them. There is some tolerence but step outside that and you will be convicted.

Just finished up a job there last year. This is one of those cases where I can say I will never go back to that country again. It is a very strict country, I'm in Qatar now and this is another "never" return to country. Can you say 10,000 QR speeding fine (starting point) about 80,000 baht.

 

Chalee

These are a bunch of terrorists/dictators who keep the majority ignorant ,

indoctrinate them , threaten to kill them or there family to make them live

how they want them to live.

Honestly, this really is xenophobic rubbish. The UAE is one of the strongest allies of the West in the Middle East, and they have never been accused of any involvement with terrorism. The UAE is a loose federation of constitutional monarchies - the individual emirs being immensely wealthy and powerful individuals, but they are hardly dictators. The current Emir of Dubai is renowned philanthropist - who recently personally gave $10 billion, one of the largest charitable donations in history, to establish a huge educational foundation to help bridge the cultural divide between the West and the Arabic world. This is hardly the act of a "terrorist/dictator".

 

Despite the skyscrapers, Dubai is a very conservative society and the legal system reflects that. However, so far as personal behaviour is concerned, they really don't mind what people do behind closed doors. They just object when it is in public. The reason they are being so harsh in this case is that not only was there kissing, but there was also public drinking (alcohol is allowed in Dubai, but only in specified places - and this wasn't one of those) and also it was in front of a child. Although the guy involved is British he was brought up as a Muslim, and the view that the court took was that he should have known better. Frankly, I find it hard to disagree with that. If you are visiting a very conservative country, then even if the local customs seem weird to you, you do have an obligation to respect them. If the locals find it deeply offensive for people to kiss and drink, then you should not do so in public - and you should most especially not do so in front of a child. If people are stupid enough to ignore this sort of thing, then they deserve all that they get.

 

I have travelled a lot in my life, and I have spent time in, among other places, Egypt (tolerant Islamic), Saudi Arabia (very intolerant Islamic) and Thailand. I adapt my behaviour accordingly. I wouldn't dream of drinking or kissing girls in Saudi, I might do both discretely in Egypt but I wouldn't get roaring drunk in public. In Thailand, I can kiss girls and get as drunk as I like, but I wouldn't dream of insulting the King. Different values. Different legal systems. If you can't live with that, then don't travel.

Edited April 5, 201016 yr by tode1640

This is just the equivalent of running a country based on the fictional teachings of Peter Pan. These people really are deluded. Personally I find the existence of the easter bunny to be far more plausible than any of the religions. How people can believe such bollocks in this day and age is beyond me.

 

Oh, and of course you can't say that or you 'offend' their delusional state with 'fact' and 'logic'.

 

If conservatism is the democratic choice of the people then yes, you should abide by those laws when in their country. Basing laws on religion is just completely messed up.

Edited April 5, 201016 yr by jojo90

Honestly, this really is xenophobic rubbish. The UAE is one of the strongest allies of the West in the Middle East, and they have never been accused of any involvement with terrorism. The UAE is a loose federation of constitutional monarchies - the individual emirs being immensely wealthy and powerful individuals, but they are hardly dictators. The current Emir of Dubai is renowned philanthropist - who recently personally gave $10 billion, one of the largest charitable donations in history, to establish a huge educational foundation to help bridge the cultural divide between the West and the Arabic world. This is hardly the act of a "terrorist/dictator".

 

Despite the skyscrapers, Dubai is a very conservative society and the legal system reflects that. However, so far as personal behaviour is concerned, they really don't mind what people do behind closed doors. They just object when it is in public. The reason they are being so harsh in this case is that not only was there kissing, but there was also public drinking (alcohol is allowed in Dubai, but only in specified places - and this wasn't one of those) and also it was in front of a child. Although the guy involved is British he was brought up as a Muslim, and the view that the court took was that he should have known better. Frankly, I find it hard to disagree with that. If you are visiting a very conservative country, then even if the local customs seem weird to you, you do have an obligation to respect them. If the locals find it deeply offensive for people to kiss and drink, then you should not do so in public - and you should most especially not do so in front of a child. If people are stupid enough to ignore this sort of thing, then they deserve all that they get.

 

I have travelled a lot in my life, and I have spent time in, among other places, Egypt (tolerant Islamic), Saudi Arabia (very intolerant Islamic) and Thailand. I adapt my behaviour accordingly. I wouldn't dream of drinking or kissing girls in Saudi, I might do both discretely in Egypt but I wouldn't get roaring drunk in public. In Thailand, I can kiss girls and get as drunk as I like, but I wouldn't dream of insulting the King. Different values. Different legal systems. If you can't live with that, then don't travel.

 

Tode... Pretty good summary of the situation in Dubai. Regardless of what you think of any country's/culture's rules, if you're stupid in public you're gonna pay the price (even though the evidence here was pretty flimsy-- apparently a kid told his mom he saw the two 'criminals' kissing-- she didn't see it herself). On the other hand, if you're discreet and know the system here you can have all the Chinese takeout you want (or Russian or African or Khazak or Phils etc etc) That's one thing Dubai has over LOS, variety... even though the prices are getting ridiculous!

Way overboard in our eyes and in the yes of a vast number of countries worldwide. BUT it is not our country and as with any country you are far better observing and following local laws and customs. Very heavy sentence but it is a just one in the eyes of the country.

 

Makes you wonder why they are spending millions building a tourist industry and then do this! Certainly not a destination I would ever head to for a holiday!

I might be going to Dubai to work, this type of thing makes me think twice about it.

But I suppose its their country, you gotta go by their rules while your there

Certainly not a destination I would ever head to for a holiday!

 

I might be going to Dubai to work, this type of thing makes me think twice about it.

I've never been to Dubai, but I certainly intend to go there one day - and I wouldn't be put off by this sort of thing. I like the Middle East - OK, it is very different from Thailand, but there are still great times to be had. I am very fond of Cairo and Alexandria, and have even had a surprisingly good time in Jeddah before now. The important thing to do when travelling is be aware of the local customs and sensibilities (not to mention laws), and adapt your behaviour accordingly. In Thailand, the big one is to avoid insulting the king, but it also helps to be respectful towards monks and monasteries, and have some sensitivity towards the whole face thing. In reasonably tolerant Islamic countries, like Egypt (and, I believe, to a lesser extent Dubai), you can pretty much do what you like as long as you are discrete, but it is important to be discrete about alcohol and women. In less tolerant Islamic countries, like Saudi Arabia, you really do have to forgo some things (like alcohol and women), however it is still possible to have a good time. That said, I probably wouldn't choose to spend a holiday in Saudi; but Egypt, Dubai or Bahrain - absolutely I would. It would just be a very different sort of holiday from the ones you would spend in Thailand.

Edited April 6, 201016 yr by tode1640

We are seeing a Plethora of these threads in this section. Can I politely remind you that this section is

 

 

Barstool Banter

General chit-chat about bars, girls, Pattaya and Thailand.

 

 

This thread has NOTHING to do with Pattaya whatsoever. if you must start such threads please ensure they are in the most appropriate section. I have moved this one to the News Forum.

 

Also please remember the News section is in the PUBLIC area and has a set of rules there which should be adhered to please guys.

Honestly, this really is xenophobic rubbish. The UAE is one of the strongest allies of the West in the Middle East, and they have never been accused of any involvement with terrorism. The UAE is a loose federation of constitutional monarchies - the individual emirs being immensely wealthy and powerful individuals, but they are hardly dictators. The current Emir of Dubai is renowned philanthropist - who recently personally gave $10 billion, one of the largest charitable donations in history, to establish a huge educational foundation to help bridge the cultural divide between the West and the Arabic world. This is hardly the act of a "terrorist/dictator".

 

Despite the skyscrapers, Dubai is a very conservative society and the legal system reflects that. However, so far as personal behaviour is concerned, they really don't mind what people do behind closed doors. They just object when it is in public. The reason they are being so harsh in this case is that not only was there kissing, but there was also public drinking (alcohol is allowed in Dubai, but only in specified places - and this wasn't one of those) and also it was in front of a child. Although the guy involved is British he was brought up as a Muslim, and the view that the court took was that he should have known better. Frankly, I find it hard to disagree with that. If you are visiting a very conservative country, then even if the local customs seem weird to you, you do have an obligation to respect them. If the locals find it deeply offensive for people to kiss and drink, then you should not do so in public - and you should most especially not do so in front of a child. If people are stupid enough to ignore this sort of thing, then they deserve all that they get.

 

I have travelled a lot in my life, and I have spent time in, among other places, Egypt (tolerant Islamic), Saudi Arabia (very intolerant Islamic) and Thailand. I adapt my behaviour accordingly. I wouldn't dream of drinking or kissing girls in Saudi, I might do both discretely in Egypt but I wouldn't get roaring drunk in public. In Thailand, I can kiss girls and get as drunk as I like, but I wouldn't dream of insulting the King. Different values. Different legal systems. If you can't live with that, then don't travel.

 

I suppose you don't BF girls in Thailand as prostitution is forbidden here ?

 

 

I travelled a lot too and never had problems . The only time i had problems was in islamic countries . I don't wanna go to

these countries anymore even if they pay me , ( very ) tolerant islam or not , just to protect myself from those fools .

 

I'm from Holland and the big cities are turning into uncontrolable islamic ghetto's with a lot of problems with over 60% muslims

already last year . Every place islam is in control you see the same problems with there crazy middle aged laws and there sick

urge to change the world in one big islamic state willingly or not .

So for me it's hard to believe that the emir of Dubai just gives a 10 billion gift to charity to close the gap between east and

west without any advantage for islam , his country or himself .

 

That's one of the reasons i'm living in Thailand , 95% boedhist ,

 

I suppose you don't BF girls in Thailand as prostitution is forbidden here ?

 

 

 

Jerry, you have to understand a big difference. Prostitution IS illegal here but it is not frowned upon per se - thats a big difference. People wil always "look down" on prostitutes here but 70% of Thai males over the age of 18 are alleged to use a prostitute at least once a month. The entire prostitute, gik, mia noi thing has been tolerated here for centuries.

 

Thailands anti-prostitution laws were introduced in 1960(ish) under heavy pressure from the USA administration at that time. Prostitution has always been "accepted" here - illegal or not. When the new law was implemented nothing really actually changed.

 

The previous government announced plans to repeal the laws but other issues have become, rightly, more important. It is however probably only a matter of time until the law is changed back to similar to what it was before. That change is undoubtedly driven by those who have a lot to gain the average Thai probably doesn't give a damn. I am not saying they "like" it - they just dont consider it overly important. The average Dubai citizen may well think differently.

 

Decent Wiki article here on the introduction of the Thai prostitution law.

Jerry, you have to understand a big difference. Prostitution IS illegal here but it is not frowned upon per se - thats a big difference. People wil always "look down" on prostitutes here but 70% of Thai males over the age of 18 are alleged to use a prostitute at least once a month. The entire prostitute, gik, mia noi thing has been tolerated here for centuries.

 

Thailands anti-prostitution laws were introduced in 1960(ish) under heavy pressure from the USA administration at that time. Prostitution has always been "accepted" here - illegal or not. When the new law was implemented nothing really actually changed.

 

The previous government announced plans to repeal the laws but other issues have become, rightly, more important. It is however probably only a matter of time until the law is changed back to similar to what it was before. That change is undoubtedly driven by those who have a lot to gain the average Thai probably doesn't give a damn. I am not saying they "like" it - they just dont consider it overly important. The average Dubai citizen may well think differently.

 

Decent Wiki article here on the introduction of the Thai prostitution law.

 

Whitespider ,

 

I'm living in Thailand i know how it works . I was just making some fun of mr moral ( tode 1640 ) .

He seems to know everything about the laws in the mid east and tells us to obey them . But being a bit of

a hypocrit when he is BFing a Thai girl as prostitution is forbidden by law in Thailand , even when nobody

gives a shit it's still the law , that was the point i was making .

 

And i think " the average Dubai citizen " is indoctrinated to think different , because everything they tell

in the mosk is " the truth " . That's one of the big differences between muslim and boedhist thinking .

 

But hey , that's just what i'm thinking and everybody is free to think what he want

 

PEACE !

whilst growing up in the UK, my mother, when telling me off always used to say as appropriate " you lying Arab", "you cheating Arab"," you thieving Arab". My point is, no smoke without fire, and having lived here in the ME for a few years, keeping these phrases in the back of my mind helps me deal with the people.

I was just making some fun of mr moral ( tode 1640 ) . He seems to know everything about the laws in the mid east and tells us to obey them . But being a bit of a hypocrit when he is BFing a Thai girl as prostitution is forbidden by law in Thailand , even when nobody gives a shit it's still the law , that was the point i was making.

I don't think that I'm being either overly moralistic here, or hypocritical. I have never advocated obeying silly laws simply for their own sake. The anti-prostitution laws in Thailand are silly laws, because Thais don't take them seriously, the police don't enforce them and prostitution is an accepted part of Thai society (not exactly respectable, but widely accepted). What I was trying to say was that if you are travelling in societies very different to your own, then you should be sensitive to cultural differences. Behaviour that is acceptable in one society is not always acceptable in another, and some behaviour (like public displays of affection) can be deeply offensive in some societies. If there are laws to back this up, then I have very limited sympathy for idiots who ignore those laws. The parallel in Thailand is the Lèse majesté laws. The Thais revere the monarchy, to the extent that they find any insult to the king deeply offensive. They have laws to back this up. In Britain a tiny handful of people feel like this about our Queen, most respect her somewhat, some people don't respect her at all. If people want to insult the Queen, then that is generally seen as an expression of freedom of speech and no one cares about it much, and you certainly won't get in trouble with the law. If you choose to come to Thailand, then you should not insult the king because if you do so then people will get very upset, and they have really tough laws to back that up. This seems a bit strange to us Brits, but it is something that anyone who comes to Thailand needs to accept. If you have problems with that, then don't come to Thailand. It is exactly the same case with public kissing in Dubai. It may seem a strange taboo, but the locals feel strongly abut it and make laws to back it up. I have very little sympathy for people who ignore those laws.

 

The reason that I got a bit annoyed in this thread, and hence possibly came across as a bit moralistic, is that I get *really* pissed off at the knee-jerk islamophobia that many people around here seem to show - and that crack about "terrorist/dictators" really infuriated me. It is massively ignorant and grossly unfair to level this sort of allegation at either the legal system or the government of Dubai.