Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, cecca said:

The condo I'm looking at would charge 50k for such paperwork, @Essexlad79 maybe you can tell me if this is legal and if I can do anything to avoid this fee?

My very vague memory, is that I paid about 2-3K but don't hold me to it - in fact, I could be way off. But I knew I was saving way, way more versus the advertised prices of condos already in the Foreign owned pool. That was on a B4.5M sale. 

If you have a been quoted a too-high fee, sometimes it's just much better to swallow the pill if there are big advantages to you on the other side.

This is something that they may see as a hassle for them. And it's something they don't have to do for you.

Outright challenging it's validity aggressively could result in a loss of face situation and if you come to rely on the Juristic, it's better to have good relations with them.

Who knows? - there may be a side deal between the Agent and the Juristic.

If you tell the Agent or Juristic you want to pay directly and you want to pay by QR code, that money will officially run through the Juristic's Accounts and you can act the dumb Falang without making them lose face.

I recall paying the Juristic directly and getting an official receipt.

Edited by Fired Up Paul
Posted
43 minutes ago, Fired Up Paul said:

My very vague memory, is that I paid about 2-3K but don't hold me to it - in fact, I could be way off. But I knew I was saving way, way more versus the advertised prices of condos already in the Foreign owned pool. That was on a B4.5M sale. 

If you have a been quoted a too-high fee, sometimes it's just much better to swallow the pill if there are big advantages to you on the other side.

This is something that they may see as a hassle for them. And it's something they don't have to do for you.

Outright challenging it's validity aggressively could result in a loss of face situation and if you come to rely on the Juristic, it's better to have good relations with them.

Who knows? - there may be a side deal between the Agent and the Juristic.

If you tell the Agent or Juristic you want to pay directly and you want to pay by QR code, that money will officially run through the Juristic's Accounts and you can act the dumb Falang without making them lose face.

I recall paying the Juristic directly and getting an official receipt.

Condo financial statements are public, I don't see any mention of this charges happening in the last 6 months, unlikely that there haven't been any quota transfer in 6 months, I will see what juristic says tomorrow 

Posted
31 minutes ago, cecca said:

unlikely that there haven't been any quota transfer in 6 months

It can be quite rare for a foreign based quota to be available for transfer as this would mean that a Thai person bought a "foreign quota property" which as mentioned previously attracts a premium and therefore releases this "quota" back to the Juristic Office to re-allocate.

Juristic Offices are a bit of a law onto themselves and there maybe more than one Thai Quota property for sale in the complex and maybe I am wrong but the Juristic Office have discretion as to where this quota can be reallocated which is why Estate Agent often try to keep on the right side of Juristic Offices when selling property, especially when they want the Juristic Office to release or change a Thai Quota Property to a Foreign Quota Property.

Just remember TIT and if they think you are causing too much of a fuss, the available foreign quota can quickly turn to "no hab" and there is very little you can do about it!

  • Like 1
Posted

Spot on @kd_traveller

 

1 hour ago, cecca said:

Condo financial statements are public, I don't see any mention of this charges happening in the last 6 months, unlikely that there haven't been any quota transfer in 6 months, I will see what juristic says tomorrow 

Not many people know about this or ask for it. And like KD says, something such as a Farang dying and leaving his condo to his wife (meaning Condo 1 can move from Foreign to Thai so that Condo 2 can go the other way) has to happen first

Posted
1 hour ago, kd_traveller said:

It can be quite rare for a foreign based quota to be available for transfer as this would mean that a Thai person bought a "foreign quota property" which as mentioned previously attracts a premium and therefore releases this "quota" back to the Juristic Office to re-allocate.

Juristic Offices are a bit of a law onto themselves and there maybe more than one Thai Quota property for sale in the complex and maybe I am wrong but the Juristic Office have discretion as to where this quota can be reallocated which is why Estate Agent often try to keep on the right side of Juristic Offices when selling property, especially when they want the Juristic Office to release or change a Thai Quota Property to a Foreign Quota Property.

Just remember TIT and if they think you are causing too much of a fuss, the available foreign quota can quickly turn to "no hab" and there is very little you can do about it!

I already verified foreigner quota is available.

I don't think juristic has any discretion on how to allocate it, they only have to make sure it stays under 49% and communicate this number to land office when there's a transfer from thai to foreigner.

Posted
3 hours ago, cecca said:

The condo I'm looking at would charge 50k for such paperwork, @Essexlad79 maybe you can tell me if this is legal and if I can do anything to avoid this fee?

Is this 50K to own the condo in Foreign Quota ? If so that’s reasonable as these units attract a premium of around 10-15% above a Thai or Company name unit and you have the advantage of having the Chanote (Title Deed) in your name. I would definitely get a good lawyer to do their due diligence to make sure all is above board ; Magna Carta are the biggest firm in town not saying they are necessarily the best. Maybe get some recommendations from others who have recently bought or sold. 

  • Like 1
Posted
7 minutes ago, Essexlad79 said:

Is this 50K to own the condo in Foreign Quota ? If so that’s reasonable as these units attract a premium of around 10-15% above a Thai or Company name unit and you have the advantage of having the Chanote (Title Deed) in your name. I would definitely get a good lawyer to do their due diligence to make sure all is above board ; Magna Carta are the biggest firm in town not saying they are necessarily the best. Maybe get some recommendations from others who have recently bought or sold. 

I'll quote exactly what they told me:

"At this time, the legal entity is in the process of issuing debt-free documents.  But there are additional costs that the juristic person did not notify from the beginning.  You will have to pay an additional 50,000 baht for the foreign share."

It's quite strange I don't see any of this charges happening in the last 6 months of financial statements. I'll try to figure out with juristic 

Posted
39 minutes ago, cecca said:

I don't think juristic has any discretion on how to allocate it, they only have to make sure it stays under 49% and communicate this number to land office when there's a transfer from thai to foreigner.

As I said previously, TIT (This is Thailand), even if the Juristic office is not supposed to have any discretion on how to allocate the quota, you can be sure they do!

For example 50Sq Mtr of foreign quota becomes available or is about to become available and there are two 50 Sq Mtr Thai quota units for sale with different agents, do you really think the Juristic Office has no discretion as to how this 50sq Mtr is allocated when whichever unit it is allocated to can increase in value 10 to 15%? 

  • Like 1
Posted
5 hours ago, kd_traveller said:

As I said previously, TIT (This is Thailand), even if the Juristic office is not supposed to have any discretion on how to allocate the quota, you can be sure they do!

For example 50Sq Mtr of foreign quota becomes available or is about to become available and there are two 50 Sq Mtr Thai quota units for sale with different agents, do you really think the Juristic Office has no discretion as to how this 50sq Mtr is allocated when whichever unit it is allocated to can increase in value 10 to 15%? 

Well, that's not my case, as there is more than enough foreigner quota and no other buyers. 

I guess in the case you mention it would be first come first served, or the parts might be informed of this problem and find a private resolution.

Juristic act transparently, if there's such sum to pay there would be a receipt and would appear in financial statements, for something like this to happen it has to be written somewhere in the condo RULES and still might not be legal.

It's not like the employee in charge of printing the required document can take this sum to his private account, share it with the agent and make it disappear, they would face consequences for doing so.

  • Thanks 1
Posted
16 minutes ago, cecca said:

Juristic act transparently, if there's such sum to pay there would be a receipt and would appear in financial statements, for something like this to happen it has to be written somewhere in the condo RULES and still might not be legal.

It's not like the employee in charge of printing the required document can take this sum to his private account, share it with the agent and make it disappear, they would face consequences for doing so.

All I can say is that if you think this is the way things work in Thailand and that all Juristic or any official offices operate transparently and may face consequences, you may be disappointed in the future.

Very few businesses can operate without "tea money" changing hands, retirement visa 800K requirement "disappears" on payment of "agency fees" and the list goes on!

You can say many things about Thailand but transparency and consequences are not two words that spring to mind.

Anyway, that is my last comment on the issue!

  • Like 2
Posted
55 minutes ago, kd_traveller said:

All I can say is that if you think this is the way things work in Thailand and that all Juristic or any official offices operate transparently and may face consequences, you may be disappointed in the future.

Very few businesses can operate without "tea money" changing hands, retirement visa 800K requirement "disappears" on payment of "agency fees" and the list goes on!

You can say many things about Thailand but transparency and consequences are not two words that spring to mind.

Anyway, that is my last comment on the issue!

Yeah not really here to talk about how things work in Thailand. 

Was looking mostly for someone with direct experience on this particular matter that could help me understand where the request comes from and where the money would go.

I thought about sinking fund, but that would be the same for thai and foreigners, it would be a much lower amount and they would have simply mentioned sinking fund.

I don't know, I'll have to figure that out with juristic.

Posted

Most of the points have already been covered but I will add a couple of comments.

The condo I bought was on Thai allocation and transferred to foreign quota but no additional fees charged in my case.

As mentioned, you need to get the statement from your bank that funds have come into your account from OS for the purchase. Check with your bank on their requirements as I have been advised that some banks will insist on doing the currency conversion for you which is not ideal as it would normally be a good rate. I used Bangkok bank and transferred money to them in baht and there was a minimal fee for the letter from memory.

My juristic fees are low at ฿11 per sq metre but some charge as much as ฿70, however 30-50 is not unusual for newer condos and smaller properties.

For the settlement payment I had to prepare 2 cheques, one for the amount for the declared value for transfer with land office and the other for the balance to the actual value. This is common practice.

  • Like 1
Posted
14 minutes ago, Sloracer said:

For the settlement payment I had to prepare 2 cheques, one for the amount for the declared value for transfer with land office and the other for the balance to the actual value. This is common practice.

Was this to save on taxes? Does it really make a big difference? In my case I agreed with the seller on a lower price than the land office quotation, so both transfer fee and specific business tax would be calculated on the land office estimate. That's what I understood

Did you have to pay a sinking fund and how much was it?

Posted
45 minutes ago, cecca said:

Was this to save on taxes? Does it really make a big difference? In my case I agreed with the seller on a lower price than the land office quotation, so both transfer fee and specific business tax would be calculated on the land office estimate. That's what I understood

Did you have to pay a sinking fund and how much was it?

I can't remember what the transfer fee was, but yes the lower valuation for land office saved about 35% on the transfer fee in my case.

The only reason you would need to deposit funds into sinking fund is if the current funds  in the sinking fund aren't sufficient to pay for existing maintenance and repair fees. That is something you would want to check before making the purchase.

 

Posted
14 minutes ago, Sloracer said:

I can't remember what the transfer fee was, but yes the lower valuation for land office saved about 35% on the transfer fee in my case.

Sorry but I can't understand this, the lowest you can go for tax calculation is the value estimated by land office, if you declare a lower price they would use their price. The only way you could have saved 35% on taxes is if the real price was 35% higher than their estimate. Am I missing something?

Posted
1 hour ago, cecca said:

Sorry but I can't understand this, the lowest you can go for tax calculation is the value estimated by land office, if you declare a lower price they would use their price. The only way you could have saved 35% on taxes is if the real price was 35% higher than their estimate. Am I missing something?

There was a 35% diffrence between actual value and declared price at land office. The declared price being equal to the price the condo was previously sold for.

So only paid transfer tax on 75% of actual value of condo.

Posted
3 minutes ago, Sloracer said:

There was a 35% diffrence between actual value and declared price at land office. The declared price being equal to the price the condo was previously sold for.

So only paid transfer tax on 75% of actual value of condo.

What was the appraised value from land office? I have no idea if this changed recently but in my case they are using that for calculate tax

Posted

I talked with juristic and fee is not going to them but to the condo developer, because the chanote is on their name.

So a couple more questions:

Why the chanote is on condo developer's name?

What documents would they release, after receiving this fee, that would allow me to make the transfer?

Posted
2 hours ago, cecca said:

What was the appraised value from land office? I have no idea if this changed recently but in my case they are using that for calculate tax

The value at the land office would be the value declared on the previous tranfer. The figure is readily available. 

Posted
1 hour ago, cecca said:

I talked with juristic and fee is not going to them but to the condo developer, because the chanote is on their name.

So a couple more questions:

Why the chanote is on condo developer's name?

What documents would they release, after receiving this fee, that would allow me to make the transfer?

Sounds like the developer is still the registered owner. I can't remember what documents were issued but I know that juristic arranged it.

I made sure that my contract terms stipulated that deposit and sale was subject to the foreign quota allocation being issued.

 

Posted
1 hour ago, cecca said:

Why the chanote is on condo developer's name?

This is a favourite trick of certain developers in Pattaya. They don’t obtain proper funding for the construction but use the buyer’s money. They then keep the chanotes for as long as possible as they use them as collateral for loans for their next project, and so on and so on. They set up different companies for each project so they can’t be held liable and they set up different companies again to supply the building materials at an inflated price.

I could name 3 or 4 developers at least that have done this in Pattaya for years. It has often led to problems for buyers as buildings are not finished, they can’t get their paperwork and, in some cases, one of the companies simply folds and developers walk away.

 

It’s why developers like Sansiri, for example, can charge a premium for their condos and usually sell out quickly. People know they are properly funded and there’ll be no issue getting their paperwork.

  • Like 3

"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."

So remember to “Enjoy every sandwich”

Posted
3 hours ago, davidge said:

This is a favourite trick of certain developers in Pattaya. They don’t obtain proper funding for the construction but use the buyer’s money. They then keep the chanotes for as long as possible as they use them as collateral for loans for their next project, and so on and so on. They set up different companies for each project so they can’t be held liable and they set up different companies again to supply the building materials at an inflated price.

I could name 3 or 4 developers at least that have done this in Pattaya for years. It has often led to problems for buyers as buildings are not finished, they can’t get their paperwork and, in some cases, one of the companies simply folds and developers walk away.

 

It’s why developers like Sansiri, for example, can charge a premium for their condos and usually sell out quickly. People know they are properly funded and there’ll be no issue getting their paperwork.

Thanks, that was very informative.

So, the chanote is in the name of the developer's company, which doesn't exist anymore, doesn't have an address or a phone number. 

Now, putting aside any question on tea money, what I would really want to know is:

Is there any possibility that the transfer would not go through after they cashed in my full payment?

Is there any possibility that the transfer would be invalidated at some point in the future because creditors of such company step forward?

Posted
5 minutes ago, cecca said:

Thanks, that was very informative.

So, the chanote is in the name of the developer's company, which doesn't exist anymore, doesn't have an address or a phone number. 

Now, putting aside any question on tea money, what I would really want to know is:

Is there any possibility that the transfer would not go through after they cashed in my full payment?

Is there any possibility that the transfer would be invalidated at some point in the future because creditors of such company step forward?

Don’t hand over any money until you’re at the Land Office and the chanote is put in your name. Get a lawyer to check if there any liens on the chanote. They’re usually written on the back.

"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."

So remember to “Enjoy every sandwich”

Posted
12 hours ago, cecca said:

Yeah not really here to talk about how things work in Thailand. 

 

3 minutes ago, davidge said:

Get a lawyer to check if there any liens on the chanote.

I will second what Davidge has said in getting a lawyer involved as my earlier statement of "You can say many things about Thailand but transparency and consequences are not two words that spring to mind."  is totally relevant in this case.

You have questions in relation to transfer taxes, you now have issues with the Chanote, all the documents are in Thai, the land office can be a chaotic place and without someone guiding you through the process there who speaks Thai you could be there for literally days!  

When I was there there were literally hundreds of people in the office by 10am in the morning and the process involves going to many different desks for different parts of the process, and I was very thankful that I was there with an agent who knew the process and paid necessary additional "administration fees" so that we were out by 11.30am while many people were still waiting in the same seats as when we arrived around 10am!

But "up to you", posters here can only give so much advice!

  • Like 3
Posted
29 minutes ago, davidge said:

Don’t hand over any money until you’re at the Land Office and the chanote is put in your name. Get a lawyer to check if there any liens on the chanote. They’re usually written on the back.

Would they update the chanote immediately or after a few days?

After it's in my name is there any reason that could make the transfer invalid in the future?

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.