Review of systems and tools in 2024 for learning and translating thai

[bgtp]

@MarcusS one of the benefits of reading Thai is that while in studying you may be using a consistent transcription scheme, but as @particle mentioned, while traveling you’ll come across different transcription and transliteration schemes. My Thai reading isn’t great, but it’s good enough for menus, street signs, maps, etc. when traveling off the beaten path which is something I like to do. Even with my limited skills, the Thais in out of the way places are often impressed.

[MarcusS]

@particle @bgtp

I´m with you both that learning to read and write Thai has its own benefits. But I'm still highly doubting that it will necessarily speed up learning to speak fluently, when that is the goal, compared to using resources and writing in the Paiboon+ transliteration language. In fact, I reckon using Thai script would slow you down considerably. 

There are several reasons for that:

1. Paiboon+ takes a matter of hours to learn, and is highly accurate. Compare it to other transliteration scripts and you´ll see. As I described in my former post, it's much easier to read than Thai because there is space between words, punctuation and so on. 

2. It´s also easy to use when writing by hand, for instance to take notes fast when talking with a teacher. The four special characters are very easy to write and do not slow you down. How fast do you write using Thai script compared to when you write in English? I have likely written more than a thousand pages in Paiboon+ when learning to speak fluently – how long would that have taken using the Thai script?

3. Excellent learning resources now exist in Paiboon+ (and the slightly less accurate script Paiboon). 

My current vocabulary is now around 12 000 words. Although I still struggle with some of the grammar when speaking, in particular the aspect markers and particles, the journey to fluent Thai was rather fast, and I started when I was over 50. Also, I´ve never lived in Thailand. 

I´m going to learn to read and write in Thai script, and I´m looking forward to it, my main motivation being that it would be easier to read resources that are only in Thai script and still close to the spoken language, such as chatting fora and Facebook posts. My motivation for learning Thai overall still is to be able to talk with people. I also listen to Thai radio, in particular a channel discussing topics on science and society.

Let me end this post by mentioning the two, in my opinion, most useful current online services converting Thai script to transliterated text and also translating to English. As an example, I'll use the Thai sentence คุณพ่อคุณแม่เป็นยังไงบ้าง – "How are your parents?"

1. https://www.clickthai-online.com/wbtde/dictionary.php

Benefits: Fast and detailed. 

Drawbacks: Does not understand all words. Does not use Paiboon+ (but you´ll recognize the words when you´re familiar with that script). Takes a bit of time to go through. 

After entering the sentence in Thai script, this is the result: 

You can break the expressions down further. 

 2. https://www.thai2english.com

This service is less accurate, but it's useful when you need a quick and dirty breakdown of longer chunks of text, as it provides the entire transliterated text at once, in addition to breaking down each word. 

I´ve tried Chat GPT-4o and it seems to do a good job, but I´m still not that familiar with it. 

Edited May 28 by MarcusS

[bgtp]

One of the interesting things about learning Thai writing is that it gives you a better understanding of how Thais speak English and write Thai words in Roman characters. For example, why they add an extra syllable and say sa-tamp instead of stamp, why a highway sign might say Ubol Ratchathani instead of Ubon Ratchathani, and why Singha is pronounced ‘sing’ with a rising tone. This may not sound like much, but every piece of the puzzle really helps imo.

Btw, we used Paiboon system in my Thai language class for the first three modules before starting on written Thai in the fourth. It’s definitely a great way to start conversational Thai. But, I still feel learning to read helps take your speaking and listening to a higher level, too. @MarcusS after you get to that point, let us know what you think. The six module course I took was based on one created to get missionaries new to Thailand up to speed in the language. I wanted to study more, but had to go home and get another job 555

[poseidon5566]

Progress update. i am now on lesson 6 of everyday thai. It is hard gooing because the material is becoming monotonous but it is good learning as i now have a break of sorts from university i have increased to 2 hours. I have abandoned dan browns book as it is far, far to difficult for my current level. From next week the second hour will be spent with a thai adventure book written by a thai author เพชรพระอุมา Petch Phra Uma which appears to be the thai version of Indiana jones basically. I have been struggling for something written by a Thai author I can read as most of the books are foreign books translated into thai which leads to many misunderstood concepts. I am continuing my lessons with erin for learn the rapid method. 

Chat GPT, although a mixed bag is still my most important tool for self study it is able to break up the words into individual words and provide a good translation of each individual word so i can follow what the sentence said's and helps to build my vocabulary. I upload a a photo of the page and t copys the text and provides translation based on the text book translation to help keep it in line and not conjour up rubbish. Probably teaching it as well for the benefit of others in the process.  

I will report back on this adventure book after trying next week. As usual, if anyone comes across any other fiction stories i could use please recommend them     

[poseidon5566]

On 28/05/2024 at 04:47, MarcusS said:

@particle @bgtp

 

Let me end this post by mentioning the two, in my opinion, most useful current online services converting Thai script to transliterated text and also translating to English. As an example, I'll use the Thai sentence คุณพ่อคุณแม่เป็นยังไงบ้าง – "How are your parents?"

 

 

I´ve 

Somewhat suspicious of that sentence not least as there are 2 classifiers, one after the word for mom and another after dad and the word for parents is พ่อแม่(pawemea) and the classifier would be ckon (person) . regardless i did read the whole sentence without thinking as it is in thai no need for transliteration and that has to be faster no?. However what you lack in reading you have in understanding the audio sound of the word and i have a lot more to do on that front which is interesting to note      

Edited August 4 by poseidon5566

[bgtp]

19 minutes ago, poseidon5566 said:

Somewhat suspicious of that sentence not least as there are 2 classifiers, one after the word for mom and another after dad and the word for parents is พ่อแม่(pawemea) and the classifier would be ckon (person) . regardless i did read the whole sentence without thinking as it is in thai no need for transliteration and that has to be faster no?. However what you lack in reading you have in understanding the audio sound of the word and i have a lot more to do on that front which is interesting to note      

No need for classifiers in this context. คุณพ่อคุณแม่ is a respectful way to say my parents or your parents. No different to me referring to you as คุณPoseidon. Let’s say I bump into your girlfriend. I could ask her คุณPoseidonเป็นยังไงบ้าง

[poseidon5566]

The adventure book has been abandoned it is sadly to advanced still according to my thai tutor. we are proceeding with nate udom (thailands most famous stand up comedian) script instead my new plan is to use his interview on Netflix as it is at the right pace in front of a live audience with my tutor for the second hour. now halfway into lesson seven of everyday thai. its beginning to stick and the book makes cleaver use of repetition of previous lessons to make things stick which is good and what you expect for a university textbook   

[MarcusS]

2 hours ago, poseidon5566 said:

The adventure book has been abandoned it is sadly to advanced still according to my thai tutor. we are proceeding with nate udom (thailands most famous stand up comedian) script instead my new plan is to use his interview on Netflix as it is at the right pace in front of a live audience with my tutor for the second hour. now halfway into lesson seven of everyday thai. its beginning to stick and the book makes cleaver use of repetition of previous lessons to make things stick which is good and what you expect for a university textbook   

Normally, it should take many months of full-time learning until there is much benefit in using an interview in advanced Thai as a learning resource. The table below  shows the estimated number of class hours needed to reach different profiency levels in a group 3 language, including Thai. 

https://www.languagetesting.com/how-long-does-it-take

Thus, a few questions for clarification: Who is the author of the Everyday Thai book you mention? Could you paste a page from lesson 7? How many words does your current active vocabulary consist of now? How many hours per week do you study, by yourself and with your tutor? In what way do you practice pronounciation?

Edited August 30 by MarcusS

[poseidon5566]

Just now, MarcusS said:

Thus, a few questions for clarification: Who is the author of the Everyday Thai book you mention? Could you paste a page from lesson 7? How many words does your current active vocabulary consist of now? How many hours per week do you study, by yourself and with your tutor? In what way do you practice pronounciation?

No problem, good questions. Author is https://asian.washington.edu/people/wiworn-kesavatana-dohrs. 

the book is Everyday Thai for Beginners  https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?i=stripbooks&rh=p_27%3AWiworn+Kesavatana-Dohrs&s=relevancerank&text=Wiworn+Kesavatana-Dohrs&ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1. 

Hours per week are decreasing i have my own degree, don't want to say what as someone may figure out who i am in real life. I practice my prounactiaion by reading the word, listening to the word with either the audio file from the cd or copy paste into google translate and have it play the word to me i then try and correct my self. During my paid lessons my tutor listens to me and corrects me in the normal way which is normally the tone as well as explain nuance use of the word ect ect. to practice the patterns independently i first see if i can break the sentence up on my own if i cant i have chat gpt split the word's up i then try to match the meaning of the words to the thai words then have chat gpt explain the meaning. i then go over this with my thai tutor as obviously gpt is not always 100% accurate, but it gets me most of the way there and is a good tool 150 hours at £15phr will add up otherwise.

The interview on Netflix i want to go through is because i am finding the text book very very boring and this is a hobby i need to be able to relax alongside my very technical medical based degree. secondly, I want to start translating some natural speech get used to hearing the tones coming out in real life ect. due to technical difficulties and drm with netflix what we have been going through is the written scripts of the comedic's routine which is actually helping my reading and seeing how these words are used in proper conversations. 

I don't have a count on words I know its a good few, I know that. I am picking up things I am seeing in adverts YouTube comments ect and I was able to convey to the Thai monks in London I am studying Thai and order my pad kaprow at the restaurant.    . best thing for me to do personally at this stage is just keep going and not worry about hours of study. I am at the last written assignment for my degree and that is taking priority. The book is excellent tho i like the lay out a lot better than poomswan beckers book and the lack of any transliteration keeps it cleaner. I am ignoring the group activity's ect and just focusing on the patterns and grammar it is helping a lot. 

 

Edited August 30 by poseidon5566

[poseidon5566]

The lay out of that post is messed up. hopefully it all makes sense even tho the scans are a bit jumbled. 

[MarcusS]

Thank you. It´s interesting to see how you are proceeding. 

And I hope your teacher is a beautiful young TG - important for motivation😀

On 31/08/2024 at 00:38, poseidon5566 said:

No problem, good questions. Author is https://asian.washington.edu/people/wiworn-kesavatana-dohrs. 

the book is Everyday Thai for Beginners  https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?i=stripbooks&rh=p_27%3AWiworn+Kesavatana-Dohrs&s=relevancerank&text=Wiworn+Kesavatana-Dohrs&ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1. 

The textbook has excellent reviews. However, the longest review underpins the commercial interests of the reviewer and the reflections on transliteration are not relevant to Paiboon+. The book is nearly 20 years old but being only on a basic level it shouldn't matter that much. 

On 31/08/2024 at 00:38, poseidon5566 said:

I practice my prounactiaion by reading the word, listening to the word with either the audio file from the cd or copy paste into google translate and have it play the word to me i then try and correct my self.

Listening and correcting, again and again, as you do, is the way. I would however, strongly suggest trying out Talking Thai - English Dictionary+Phrasebook (icon below) for a much faster and richer experience than a CD or Google Translate. Not least, you can create lists (not having to look up the word repeatedly), have them played at different speeds, and test yourself by just looking at the English word and trying to remember the Thai word AND the pronounciation, which is more efficient.

On 31/08/2024 at 00:38, poseidon5566 said:

on my own if i cant i have chat gpt split the word's up i then try to match the meaning of the words to the thai words then have chat gpt explain the meaning.

You might find this service faster and easier: https://www.clickthai-online.com/wbtde/dictionary.php

On 31/08/2024 at 00:38, poseidon5566 said:

i am finding the text book very very boring

Having fun and enjoying the journey is paramount not only to remember, but also to keep learning in the long run. As a beginner, it's difficult to avoid a bit of boredom completely, though. Again, I would recommend switching to the first batch of written and recorded dialogues from pickup-thai.com as soon as you're ready for it. I´m confident you´ll find that even the basic level can be fun. (Download the free ones and see for yourself). For sure you´ll learn more from that than from an advanced Netflix interview. Another suggestion would be, as an experiment, to use those dialogues as the base, and the structured textbook as a reference. 

As for me, I´ve found that Preply has many beautiful teachers and have just started  a booster dose of simply talking about any topic naturally (with the possibility to ask questions) to gear up for my upcoming trip. It´s a bit expensive, but Preply takes a heavy profit and in my experience it´s possible to leave that site and do things privately, with the same teacher and for a more reasonable fee.

Keep us updated and good luck! 

Edited September 2 by MarcusS

[nostalgiadlb]

Really thorough, well-researched information here, thank you @MarcusS. I'm only planning to live in Thailand for a year or so, perhaps less, so I'm wondering really whether its worth the immense effort it would take. I'm bilingual, speaking English and a Slavic language.

[MarcusS]

2 hours ago, nostalgiadlb said:

Really thorough, well-researched information here, thank you @MarcusS. I'm only planning to live in Thailand for a year or so, perhaps less, so I'm wondering really whether its worth the immense effort it would take. I'm bilingual, speaking English and a Slavic language.

Thanks for the feedback, appreciate that. 

Is it worth it?

The more languages you know, and the younger you are, the easier it will be – less effort. Which means that there will never be a better time than now.  Living there for an extended time will give you endless opportunities to practice and be immersed, which means you might see quick progress. Even if you only have a small vocabulary it will be something to play with and many ladies even enjoy teaching a bit. (Tip: The best classroom is in bed). 

A main point would be whether you enjoy the learning journey or not. Which again depends on your personality, preferences, background, natural ability to learn languages and, well, intellect. But more important than all of those is m o t i v a t i o n.

Motivation because the words and grammar you learn will open up a world you never really knew of - culturally, emotionally and relation-wise. And of course, the motivation that comes from experiencing that being able to speak Thai will get you to a very different level with regard to the ladies. Richer, more satisfying, and dare I say it, more genuine.

A turning point would be when your Thai is better than her English. In some cases, that doesn't require much. Every word and piece of grammar you learn to master will be of benefit. Step by step you'll be able to connect more, and to see her and Thailand from within, not from the outside. 

If you like a challenge, there´s hardly a better one than learning Thai when staying in Thailand. But lay the groundwork before you go - pronounciation, tones and basic vocabulary + grammar. Remember that it takes at least a month before a word really sticks (dramatic situations though, has sometimes reduced it to one second haha). Use spaced repetion but don't memorize what you do not understand - understand first.

With a teacher: ask, ask, ask about everything that you do not understand or are uncertain of. Compare to other words, contrast, and not least, make her tell whether a word is mostly used in written or spoken language (the dictionaries mostly do not tell).  Avoid written Thai at all cost as a beginner (with Paiboon+ you can start writing transliterated Thai right away and handwriting is paramount to learning as it helps memory much more than typing). Tell the teacher you want to learn actual, spoken Thai. 

I think many give up because they use unfortunate resources and methods. Use a clever approach and one beautiful night you will the one landing the one everyone said was a "drink only" girl, joking with her in Thai when you leave the bar, and understanding more of what the person at your side really is about. 

Ps. some ladies feel so happy and safe meeting someone that can speak Thai that they won't stop talking! (Tip: interrupt her with a long kiss, mid-sentence). 

Good luck!

Edited September 19 by MarcusS