Photographing Thai girls - legal aspect

[rog555]

You see posts of here about avoiding having photos of thai girls you barfine on your phone when crossing borders.  Or about the CPT guy getting arrested over thai porn movie making.
Or OnlyFans arrests of thai couples.

I can see these are different categories.  Some involve publishing on internet, payments etc.

It would be nice to know the legal position clearly.

For most mongers, we want to know is it legal to photo the thai girl you barfine.   Not intending to publish or make money.

Photo her in clothes, in sexy clothes,  photo her tits, bottom, pussy.  Photo having sex with her. Photo her using a sex toy.  All with consent.
None of it published, or sold to others for money.

Which of those activities is legal in thailand ?  I can see other countries you pass through may have their own laws.  So restrict it to thai laws only.

Anyone have a clear idea of what is not legal on my list of activties ? 

Or is it all legal if its only for your personal memory, use.

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by rog555

[Billy Shears]

Pornography is illegal in Thailand. I don't think anybody will care if it's for your own personal use, but if you really want to cover yourself, upload it into some cloud and delete it from your phone immediately.

[Farangkie]

Yes pornography is illegal here in Thailand, but plenty guys take pornographic pics and video of the girls they bar fine. And plenty of girls , are more than happy to agree to being photographed and filmed, now compared to a few years ago, for some reason I haven't been able to work out yet.

But, you need to protect yourself, and that means get whatever pics or video you've taken off your phone, or SD card as soon as you can. That means uploading, to a secure cloud service, then delete it from the device you used to take pics with.

Two things can happen if you don't delete the pics or video. One could be that the girl is very happy at the time to be filmed, and that's great if you don't have an issue with her later on. If you do happen to have a major dispute with her down the track, in a few days or a few weeks time. If she's really vindictive, and has a policeman friend, she could say that you made her make a video under duress, and you threatened her. If the video taken of her is still on your phone when the police come knocking on your door, your fucked. It will be very very expensive to get out of that mess.

The other possible problem you could have, is when you arrive back in your home country. If Customs stop you and check your devices. If they see your home made pornography, and if they think the girl is not of legal age. They have a policy of, if it looks wrong, it is wrong. Your at a higher risk of being accused of that, because Thai girls that are 18 to 20, can look very much younger.

There was a case a where a guy was put on trial in Puerto Rico for transporting UA content when Customs searched him, and found a porn DVD in his baggage. He was looking at 20 years in prison, he only escaped the charge. When the actress "Little Lupe" Lupe Fuentes went to court and testified on his behalf. And proved that she was 19 when she made the porn movie, only then were the charges dropped.

Both of the above are highly unlikely , but both things have actually happened, so it's important to get your home movies on to the cloud ASAP. Personally I start to upload any video I've taken to the cloud, as soon as the girl's left my condo, and everything's deleted off my device within 30 minutes of her leaving.

https://nypost.com/2010/04/24/a-trial-star-is-porn/

Edited August 2, 2022 by Farangkie

[Dutcher]

11 minutes ago, Farangkie said:

Both of the above are highly unlikely , but both things have actually happened, so it's important to get your home movies on to the cloud ASAP. Personally I start to upload any video I've taken to the cloud, as soon as the girl's left my condo, and everything's deleted off my device within 30 minutes of her leaving.

Just a word of warning, it’s possible that your cloud accounts get hacked. I guess it depends on the content, e.g. you are recognisable in the movie, how much you care about that risk.

[Heisenberg7008]

22 minutes ago, Farangkie said:

Two things can happen if you don't delete the pics or video. One could be that the girl is very happy at the time to be filmed, and that's great if you don't have an issue with her later on. If you do happen to have a major dispute with her down the track, in a few days or a few weeks time. If she's really vindictive, and has a policeman friend, she could say that you made her make a video under duress, and you threatened her. If the video taken of her is still on your phone when the police come knocking on your door, your fucked. It will be very very expensive to get out of that mess.

The other possible problem you could have, is when you arrive back in your home country. If Customs stop you and check your devices. If they see your home made pornography, and if they think the girl is not of legal age. They have a policy of, if it looks wrong, it is wrong. Your at a higher risk of being accused of that, because Thai girls that are 18 to 20, can look very much younger.

Very scary to read, the first example is highly like to happens, not all TG are angels, there were so many evil souls there want to take all ur money 

When u end up fight with TG whoever right or wrong, Thai onlu wins….u May end up by paying her only no other way to out

 

[Farangkie]

12 minutes ago, Dutcher said:

Just a word of warning, it’s possible that your cloud accounts get hacked. I guess it depends on the content, e.g. you are recognisable in the movie, how much you care about that risk.

I know, I use Dropbox, and I know that they have the ability to view your files.

That's why I use Cryptomator, to encrypt anything I upload to the cloud.

 

[Dutcher]

4 minutes ago, Farangkie said:

I know, I use Dropbox, and I know that they have the ability to view your files.

That's why I use Cryptomator, to encrypt anything I upload to the cloud.

 

That’s a good move to only upload encrypted files.

Users can be hacked or get a virus and get their passwords stolen and someone logs in to their account. But the service itself, e.g. Dropbox, can also be hacked, and like you say, the service employees possibly also have access to your files.

[rog555]

2 hours ago, WhiteThai said:

Pornography is illegal in Thailand. 

2 BMs both use the same phrase.

It begs the question 'what is pornography?'.   Is a photo of a girl in a bikini pornography, are naked breasts pornography.

I googled it.  Found english versions of thai laws.  Seem to focus on 'obscene and trade'.    But what things are 'obscene' ?

Here is one long quoted section of law from Siam Legal, which is not that clear:

 

Section 287. Pornography

Whoever:

For the purpose of trade or by trade, for public distribution or exhibition, makes, produces, possesses, brings or causes to be brought into the Kingdom, sends or causes to be sent out of the Kingdom, takes away or causes to be taken away, or circulates by any means whatever, any document, drawing, print, painting, printed matter, picture, poster, symbol, photograph, cinematograph film, noise tape, picture tape or any other thing which is obscene;

Carries on trade, or takes part or participates in the trade concerning the aforesaid obscene material or thing, or distributes or exhibits to the public, or hires out such material or thing;

In order to assist in the circulation or trading of the aforesaid obscene material or thing, propagates or spreads the news by any means whatever that there is a person committing the act which is an offence according to this Section, or propagates or spreads the news that the aforesaid obscene material or thing may be obtained from any person or by any means,

shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding three years or fined not exceeding six thousand Baht, or both.

Section Code: 0282 - 0287

Criminal Code

SPECIFIC OFFENSES
TITLE IX
OFFENCE RELATING TO SEXUALITY

Edited August 2, 2022 by rog555

[momo5]

1 hour ago, rog555 said:

2 BMs both use the same phrase.

It begs the question 'what is pornography?'.   Is a photo of a girl in a bikini pornography, are naked breasts pornography.

I googled it.  Found english versions of thai laws.  Seem to focus on 'obscene and trade'.    But what things are 'obscene' ?

Here is one long quoted section of law from Siam Legal, which is not that clear:

 

Section 287. Pornography

Whoever:

For the purpose of trade or by trade, for public distribution or exhibition, makes, produces, possesses, brings or causes to be brought into the Kingdom, sends or causes to be sent out of the Kingdom, takes away or causes to be taken away, or circulates by any means whatever, any document, drawing, print, painting, printed matter, picture, poster, symbol, photograph, cinematograph film, noise tape, picture tape or any other thing which is obscene;

Carries on trade, or takes part or participates in the trade concerning the aforesaid obscene material or thing, or distributes or exhibits to the public, or hires out such material or thing;

In order to assist in the circulation or trading of the aforesaid obscene material or thing, propagates or spreads the news by any means whatever that there is a person committing the act which is an offence according to this Section, or propagates or spreads the news that the aforesaid obscene material or thing may be obtained from any person or by any means,

shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding three years or fined not exceeding six thousand Baht, or both.

Section Code: 0282 - 0287

Criminal Code

SPECIFIC OFFENSES
TITLE IX
OFFENCE RELATING TO SEXUALITY

This is all subject to interpretation at the time of the incident … and if one of your artsy topless photos is of the police captain’s daughter, you’re very likely on the wrong end of that interpretation.  
 

Err on the side of caution and protect yourself as noted by several posters here.  Or … you could argue and debate for months on end, spending millions of baht in the process, all with a good chance of not prevailing. 
 

I always upload any remotely questionable content, encrypted, to a cloud service or my home network.  With hundreds of entries into the US, I’ve never once had my phone and/or devices questioned or searched, but I’m sure the one time I have a photo shoot of scantily clad LBFMs on my phone will be the time I get pulled aside for a thorough search … even if it gets passed off with chuckle, I don’t want the stress of worrying about what could happen.  

[simon6666]

The intent of act as written points toward punishing content distribution (or intent to distribute) rather than possession. This is strongly supported by precedent.

Which is what they'd be looking at in court. Potential to bring in expert testimony to qualify the 'obscene' tag. In truth the public's reaction (if any) would also factor in. Prosecution would look toward proving profit/gain intent.

Defense - Private intimate pictures/memories are not pornography.

If anyone has examples of convictions where the content involved consenting adults, and neither distribution nor intent to distribute were demonstrated, I'd like to hear them.

[Farangkie]

7 minutes ago, simon6666 said:

 

If anyone has examples of convictions where the content involved consenting adults,I and neither distribution nor intent to distribute were demonstrated, I'd like to hear them.

Something like this would never end up in court, it would begin and end at the police station.

With a payment being agreed so it didn't go to court, and therefore never be publicized.

[LASportsNut]

Speaking to the USA Citizens, as I am unsure of all the laws in all the various countries.  This is for reentry into the USA:

The legal authorities cannot search your phone or computer without your consent.  So politely decline any request.

The only way for them to get into your devices is if they have "Probable Cause."

"Probable cause" is the legal basis that allows police to arrest someone, conduct a search, or seize property. This requirement comes from the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, which states that:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be searched."

So, at a minimum, in order for a court to issue a warrant, it must be supported by a showing of probable cause. This article will provide a definition of probable cause and examine the probable cause standard in connection with detention, arrest, search, seizure, and prosecution.

So if they have probable cause it is best you still decline and force then to get a search warrant from the court signed by a judge.

 

[likeaking]

49 minutes ago, LASportsNut said:

Speaking to the USA Citizens, as I am unsure of all the laws in all the various countries.  This is for reentry into the USA:

The legal authorities cannot search your phone or computer without your consent.  So politely decline any request.

The only way for them to get into your devices is if they have "Probable Cause."

"Probable cause" is the legal basis that allows police to arrest someone, conduct a search, or seize property. This requirement comes from the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, which states that:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be searched."

So, at a minimum, in order for a court to issue a warrant, it must be supported by a showing of probable cause. This article will provide a definition of probable cause and examine the probable cause standard in connection with detention, arrest, search, seizure, and prosecution.

So if they have probable cause it is best you still decline and force then to get a search warrant from the court signed by a judge.

 

After watching many TV shows of immigration, customs and homeland security agents searching phones, luggage and persons without much more than a hunch, I doubt your advice applies to U.S. citizens entering the country. Border patrol, immigration and U.S. Customs are excluded from the necessity of obtain  a search warrant to do a search even x-ray you body, or so I've seen on TV.  

Edited August 2, 2022 by likeaking

[LASportsNut]

8 minutes ago, likeaking said:

After watching many TV shows of immigration, customs and homeland security agents searching phones, luggage and persons without much more than a hunch, I doubt your advice applies to U.S. citizens entering the country. Border patrol, immigration and U.S. Customs are excluded from the necessity of obtain  a search warrant to do a search even x-ray you body, or so I've seen on TV.  

I am talking about unlocking your devices.

They cannot do that.

[momo5]

2 hours ago, LASportsNut said:

I am talking about unlocking your devices.

They cannot do that.

Fourth Amendment rights are limited prior to entry to the US (entry defined as having crossed through immigration and customs), even for US citizens.  Indeed, US CBP has wide powers of search/seizure within 100 miles inland of any port of entry.  
 

The 9th Circuit did put limits as you’ve described on search/seizures of US citizens, but those protections only apply to ports of entry under their jurisdiction (mostly West Coast).  
 

The 1st Circuit more recently upheld the search/seizure policies of US CBP, again applying to those ports of entry in their jurisdictions. 
 

Clearly, it’s a cluster fuck as to what your rights are while coming home from abroad.  One could take the chance of spending hours/weeks/months and likely an enormous amount of money to possibly make the point that you’re right … I’m sure you’ll revel in the thrill of it as your house is being foreclosed and your return to Pattaya is out off for another tens years due to lack of resources … or you can play it safe, travel without anything that could potentially be questioned and play along when they want to peruse your phone for photos of temples and the endless variations on som tam.  
 

I also read somewhere that a court could not force someone to provide a lock code to unlock a phone, but could force a fingerprint or facial recognition to unlock a phone.  I don’t remember any of the other details, but I’m sure it varies by jurisdiction as well. 

[Roadglide]

What I have done for YEARS now, even here in the states when I am doing a model shoot, I ALWAYS take a photo of their ID card and then another one with the model holding the ID card next to her face.

Doing this will avoid any underage issues, it will also avoid any issues of her claiming that she didn't know you were taking the photos.  Additionally I will also use an online model release form when I'm here in the states.  If you want to double down you could download one and get it translated into Thai.

[Dishmonkey]

3 hours ago, Roadglide said:

What I have done for YEARS now, even here in the states when I am doing a model shoot, I ALWAYS take a photo of their ID card and then another one with the model holding the ID card next to her face.

Doing this will avoid any underage issues, it will also avoid any issues of her claiming that she didn't know you were taking the photos.  Additionally I will also use an online model release form when I'm here in the states.  If you want to double down you could download one and get it translated into Thai.

This is a good idea imo. How receptive have the ladies been to this? Specifically thai.

[rog555]

I'm glad BMs have thought about this issue.  Not too much comes up in a google search.

BMs seem concerned about crossing borders with girly photos, especially crossing into USA.  Transiting via countries would have a slight risk too.

I'm personally focused on what's legal in thailand as I reside here. 

Putting girly photos only in the cloud sounds appealing at first sight, the photos are not in thailand. 

But as soon as you view one, it is on your screen surely ?  Probably in cloud caches on your device too.

I found 2 articles with more details:

1.  Lawyers discussing the effectiveness of the thai section 287:

http://www.thailawforum.com/articles/indecency-challenge-thailaw.html

2. An article about porno laws in SEA.  Describes porno as illegal in most places.  But has a sentence about thailand that says porno is not illegal for personal use.  Implies that religious, celebate, people can use it.  I don't know how accurate it is, its just a wiki.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Pornography_in_Asia

Overall BMs seem to be aware photoing thai girls for personal use could be a legal issue.  But do it anyway as risk of a serious problem is very low.  Maybe some tea money or a fine, rather than jail time.  Its not a well understood area in which we see news reports monthly.

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by rog555

[simon6666]

14 hours ago, Farangkie said:

Something like this would never end up in court, it would begin and end at the police station.

With a payment being agreed so it didn't go to court, and therefore never be publicized.

That's up to the individual(s) involved.

I'd add: Never say never.

https://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/crimecourtscalamity/2021/09/21/onlyfan-creator-arrested-charged-for-porn-content/

The salient point in this article:

"Thai laws do not ban the possession of pornography that depicts individuals over the age of 18, though the creation, dissemination and monetizing of such materials is considered illegal."

A reporter's understanding, but congruent with how these laws are applied.

https://www.khmertimeskh.com/501007230/garment-factory-worker-charged-for-pornography/

This one I found interesting. An example between adults where intent to distribute likely not present.

The important factor here, however, the non-consenting subject.

[rog555]

11 minutes ago, simon6666 said:

 

https://www.khmertimeskh.com/501007230/garment-factory-worker-charged-for-pornography/

This one I found interesting. An example between adults where intent to distribute likely not present.

The important factor here, however, the non-consenting subject.

Note: The link is about Cambodian law.

[simon6666]

1 minute ago, rog555 said:

Note: The link is about Cambodian law.

I thought I'd found an exception. My mistake. Thanks for that.

Interpretation may be same in Thailand with non-consenting parties but I have no examples supporting that.

The one I found included distribution.

[rog555]

Just now, simon6666 said:

I thought I'd found an exception. My mistake. Thanks for that.

Interpretation may be same in Thailand with non-consenting parties but I have no examples supporting that.

The one I found included distribution.

OK.  Maybe we need to search using thai language.   Translation issues surrounding words like obscene, pornographic.    One article I found said that 'ugly' images were obscene.   Shame if your GF is not beautiful. 555.

 

[themehta]

How to select Best options for cloud services .....

 

 

[Farangkie]

1 hour ago, simon6666 said:

That's up to the individual(s) involved.

I'd add: Never say never.

 

I know of the case, but there's no mention of this ever going to court, like I mentioned before, it will get handled within the police station.

Just like the recent case of the British guy on holiday here, when he was working out in a gym, he got bashed in the head with a bar bell by British expat, he could have easily been killed. It was caught on CCTV, and everyone could see how vicious and unprovoked the attack was. In most other places in the world, that would be a serious charge of at least Grievous Bodily Harm, possibly even Attempted Murder.

What the end result was, the attacker had to pay a combination of compensation, and expensive police fines, to total sum of 2 million baht. There were no criminal charges filed, and that was the end of the matter. A very serious incident was taken care of out of court, and by a different method.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Farangkie

[simon6666]

15 minutes ago, Farangkie said:

I know of the case, but there's no mention of this ever going to court, like I mentioned before, it will get handled within the police station.

It may go to court, it may not.

As we all know, it is common that these things are resolved without doing so.

However it is clear from the OP that this is a thread intended for discussion of the actual laws involved, making this a moot point.