The Dreaded Boeing 737-MAX

[1tooth]

What steps are you taking to avoid flying the Dreaded Boeing 737-MAX?

[Kandinski]

None

[duke main]

That airframe has been under such a microscope for the past few years I'd actually prefer it over other narrow bodies.

[Blue Boy]

Check out  'Downfall : The Case against Boeing' documentary. I wouldn't trust them to make a kids model plane.

[padfoot]

I'm not doing anything.

[Petesie]

6 hours ago, Blue Boy said:

Check out  'Downfall : The Case against Boeing' documentary. I wouldn't trust them to make a kids model plane.

I watched that a few weeks ago, Boeing is a great aircraft manufacturer.

I'm a QA/QC guy & know the consequences of bypassing that step which was exactly what they did. Airbus did the same with the 380; they assumed but didn't check. The drawings for the the German manufactured end were different from the French ones & had not been updated...this led to a 2 year & very costly delay as there had been an increase in dimensions.

Some major businesses see QA as a delay, they are you're assurance that all is as it should be, ignore that at your peril!

[philkrenshaw]

Not dreaded by me.

[ZRHuser]

If it's Boeing, I am not going.

[1tooth]

The thing I'm suspicious about is that they will rebrand the 737 Max to an unrecognizable name or model, to avoid the wary. Then there is always the last minute plane switch, especially on code shares.

[OKAY]

Did one crash today in China ?

China Eastern Airlines Flight 5735

looks bad

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by OKAY

[Kahoy]

Not a MAX

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-21/china-eastern-airlines-passenger-jet-accident/100928004

https://simpleflying.com/boeing-737-max-vs-737-800/

 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Kahoy

[jetdoc]

4 hours ago, philkrenshaw said:

Not dreaded by me.

Me neither, the two 37 max's thet crashed were forgiven carriers. US pilots also reported problems bur may understand the systems better. When I fly now, I worry more about pilot experience cause growth moves pilots up more quickly and even though qualified lack experience.

[Petesie]

They've upgraded & approved the software which was the main issue; all pilots have now been retrained and briefed which was the other main issue. Unless some other major problem arises I'd have no hesitation flying on one. 

[OKAY]

42 minutes ago, Petesie said:

They've upgraded & approved the software which was the main issue

I'm gonna disagree with that. The main issue was the Boeing 'cover up' and abuse of political power. I watched the "The Case against Boeing' documentary." and am not  inclined to cut Boeing any slack; then and the lazy stupid bought-off American Safety Agency or whatever they're called. The public was killed by collusion and stupidity and corrupt officials in America.

[Whalley]

On 20/03/2022 at 14:29, 1tooth said:

What steps are you taking to avoid flying the Dreaded Boeing 737-MAX?

.
 

I don’t avoid the Max.  It’s a great aircraft.

 

But if I’m flying with a third world carrier, after the flight attendant do the passenger safety briefing I just provide the pilots with the link to my own easy to understand pilot safety briefing video.

 

In the Western world pilots are (and always have been) trained as a memory item, how to deal with a runaway stabilizer.  The procedure takes only a few seconds to accomplish.

 

Sadly, in the third world, the mounting evidence would suggest (2 crashed Max’s) that pilot are trained to fly but not trained to handle emergencies.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Whalley

[Atlas]

15 hours ago, Petesie said:

They've upgraded & approved the software which was the main issue;

God help us....

My "Windows and Samsung" software get upgraded all the time with something not working or changed afterwards.... 

By trade I am an ex Aircraft Engineer, 22yrs experience. No, I would not knowingly get on a Max. Neither do I prefer to fly in a one engine plane unless it has an ejection seat. 

I was fortunate to fly in a ejection seat military aircraft a few times, great fun, but they can have it, it's not for me

 

[Wingeing Pom]

I will avoid flying on the 737-max. I know most know this (below) but not all  .....

The earlier 737 versions were unable to compete with new more fuel efficient rivals. It would have taken years to get a new Boeing model .. so they just fitted more fuel efficient engines to the old design.

The trouble with that was these engines were larger .. so had to be positioned to stick out from the wing front .. or they would be very near the ground.

So the plane was basically now front heavy. It was realised in advance that was very likely to cause big problems in certain circumstances. I think the safe nose down angle was much much less.

So they put in a software safety feature (but they could not be arsed to tell pilots or airlines about its existence). 

It is STILL front heavy.  Passengers lives are in the hands of software code.  But the pilots are now trained on the feature.

What was wrong with the old fashioned design concept.  Design the freaking plane to fly safely.

It may be safe now but Boeing should build planes that are designed to fly safely... not rely on computers to over ride a big design flaw.  Its front heavy.  Still is. 

They dont contest that fact. They use computer code to over ride a design flaw

Design a new plane FF sake,

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Wingeing Pom

[OKAY]

8 hours ago, Whalley said:

Sadly, in the third world, the mounting evidence would suggest (2 crashed Max’s) that pilot are trained to fly but not trained to handle emergencies.

"...investigators have concluded in a new analysis that the March 2019 crash of an Ethiopian Airlines flight was caused by design flaws in the Boeing 737 Max plane and not by the performance of the airline or its pilots,..."

Others think it was not untrained pilots that made the Ethiopian 737 Max crash, the pilots did everything that they were supposed to. The MCAS brought that plane down. The documentary says that anyway and I believe them a lot more than Boeing headquarters.

Boeing fixed the code; as if there were most probably only the one bug. The process to approve the plane for flight is still flawed and Boeing is still going to take advantage of their advantage.

[Wingeing Pom]

9 hours ago, Whalley said:

But if I’m flying with a third world carrier, after the flight attendant do the passenger safety briefing I just provide the pilots with the link to my own easy to understand pilot safety briefing video.

 

In the Western world pilots are (and always have been) trained as a memory item, how to deal with a runaway stabilizer.  The procedure takes only a few seconds to accomplish.

 

Sadly, in the third world, the mounting evidence would suggest (2 crashed Max’s) that pilot are trained to fly but not trained to handle emergencies.

 

 

IMG_3441.MOV

Errrrrr it was not the pilots fault.  Boeing added a secret feature that kept pushing the nose down. Too complicated to go into whys/wherefors for you ... but you can research it.  If Boeing had told pilots about the feature they would have corrected it very easily. 

Boeing admiited responsibility but should have been prosecuted ..

A QUOTE FROM THE FIRST ITEM AFTER AN  INTERNET SEARCH  re if Boeing admitted guilt....

The settlement allowed Boeing to avoid prosecution, includes a fine of $243.6 million, compensation to airlines of $1.77 billion and a $500 million crash-victim fund over fraud conspiracy charges related to the plane's flawed design. The deferred prosecution agreement is a form of corporate plea bargain.Dec 16, 2564 BE

 

The plane was grounded for a very long time.  Hardly suggests there was serious thoughts it was a badly trained pilot issue.

But hey ho.   You say it would have taken seconds to correct. Are you a pilot ?

Edited March 22, 2022 by Wingeing Pom

[Wingeing Pom]

Duplication

Edited March 22, 2022 by Wingeing Pom

[SkippyRoo]

6 hours ago, Atlas said:

God help us....

My "Windows and Samsung" software get upgraded all the time with something not working or changed afterwards.... 

By trade I am an ex Aircraft Engineer, 22yrs experience. No, I would not knowingly get on a Max. Neither do I prefer to fly in a one engine plane unless it has an ejection seat. 

I was fortunate to fly in a ejection seat military aircraft a few times, great fun, but they can have it, it's not for me

 

@Atlas May be able to confirm something that ties in with my way of thinking about this....it is not just the Pilot training you have to worry about IMHO it is where and when the mataince and repairs are done...

I mean the she’ll be right attitude doesn’t cut it with Aircraft as far I am concerned...

Anyone recall that line by Steve Buschemis character in Armageddon as the shuttle is about to take off.... I see parraells to this topic as well to the Space Shuttle disaster...

Skippy

Edited March 22, 2022 by SkippyRoo
Auto correct not correct

[Atlas]

1 hour ago, SkippyRoo said:

@Atlas May be able to confirm something that ties in with my way of thinking about this....it is not just the Pilot training you have to worry about IMHO it is where and when the mataince and repairs are done...

I mean the she’ll be right attitude doesn’t cut it with Aircraft as far I am concerned...

Very true Sir. 

I HAD great respect for Qantas (and their outstanding safety record) until they outsourced their maintenance overseas to much cheaper labor. 

Like my brake pads and tyres on my bikes, you generally get what you pay for. 

[T-T-T]

not sure its the 737  max ?

https://news.sky.com/story/plane-carrying-133-passengers-crashes-in-southern-china-state-tv-reports-12571911

Edited March 22, 2022 by T-T-T

[jaykao]

Afaik the whole "it was bad foreign pilots tho"  was just the Boeing spin before the plane was forced back for modifications for the unsafe systems.

Wasn't it recorded that the Ethiopian Airways guys followed the exact trained procedure and the plane crashed anyway? 

[Whalley]

14 hours ago, Atlas said:

God help us....

My "Windows and Samsung" software get upgraded all the time with something not working or changed afterwards.... 

By trade I am an ex Aircraft Engineer, 22yrs experience. No, I would not knowingly get on a Max. Neither do I prefer to fly in a one engine plane unless it has an ejection seat. 

I was fortunate to fly in a ejection seat military aircraft a few times, great fun, but they can have it, it's not for me

 

 

9 hours ago, OKAY said:

"...investigators have concluded in a new analysis that the March 2019 crash of an Ethiopian Airlines flight was caused by design flaws in the Boeing 737 Max plane and not by the performance of the airline or its pilots,..."

Others think it was not untrained pilots that made the Ethiopian 737 Max crash, the pilots did everything that they were supposed to. The MCAS brought that plane down. The documentary says that anyway and I believe them a lot more than Boeing headquarters.

Boeing fixed the code; as if there were most probably only the one bug. The process to approve the plane for flight is still flawed and Boeing is still going to take advantage of their advantage.

 

8 hours ago, Wingeing Pom said:

Errrrrr it was not the pilots fault.  Boeing added a secret feature that kept pushing the nose down. Too complicated to go into whys/wherefors for you ... but you can research it.  If Boeing had told pilots about the feature they would have corrected it very easily. 

Boeing admiited responsibility but should have been prosecuted ..

A QUOTE FROM THE FIRST ITEM AFTER AN  INTERNET SEARCH  re if Boeing admitted guilt....

The settlement allowed Boeing to avoid prosecution, includes a fine of $243.6 million, compensation to airlines of $1.77 billion and a $500 million crash-victim fund over fraud conspiracy charges related to the plane's flawed design. The deferred prosecution agreement is a form of corporate plea bargain.Dec 16, 2564 BE

 

The plane was grounded for a very long time.  Hardly suggests there was serious thoughts it was a badly trained pilot issue.

But hey ho.   You say it would have taken seconds to correct. Are you a pilot ?

I have more than 40 years on the B737 and routinely go on test flights following major maintenance checks.  The pilots I fly with say it’s inconceivable that these 2 aircraft crashed because of a runaway stabilizer.  Such a simple thing that takes a few seconds to correct.
 

 An emergency procedure that B737 pilots here are routinely drilled on, in a simulator.   A procedure that by law is required to be accomplished competently as a memory item.  (No check list allowed during the drill).

 

The Max became so politicized that the facts of what really happened got lost in the rhetoric. 
 

The first Lion Air crash was the result of their maintenance staff installing a faulty angle of attack sensor (rigged 22 degrees out of tollerance by a shop not legally certified to work on this part) and never properly tested as required by the maintenance manual once installed, before Lion Air released the aircraft.  This happened the evening before the crash.

The evening before the crash, the aircraft departed and the faulty sensor triggered a stab runaway.  The pilots flying initially failed to do the non-normal procedure (memory item) that requires them to simply correct with the thumb switch & cutout the Stab as shown in my video.  
 

They panicked, didn’t know what to do and declared a Pan-Pan emergency.

Lucky for them, a dead-heading pilot in the cockpit observer’s seat understood the situation and advised the pilots to use the cutout switches (as shown in my video)

The procedures take a few seconds to accomplish and pilots are legally required to know this.  In the western world that I live in, pilots do know this and for this reason find the whole situation bizarre.  
 

Back to Lion Air on the evening flight prior to the crash.  The pilots finally did do the simple cut-out procedure and cancelled their emergency Pan-Pan with air traffic control.

 

The pilots are now legally required to land at the closest airport.  But as history tells us by the number or aircraft Lion Air has crashed, with no safety culture they didn’t do what is required and just soldered on.

Unbelievable in my opinion.  This shit simply doesn’t happen in my world.
 

Now the flight crew has to cover up the fact that they decided to continue with an unsafe aircraft.  To help with the cover up they failed to make proper log book entries. Fucking unbelievable!

By doing so, they set up the next crew for the impending disaster who departed the next morning without a clue.

When the fatal flight departed.  The same scenario occurred.  Flight crew not properly trained to accomplish this extremely simple procedure did everything wrong and the rest is history.

In the cover up that followed Lion Air went so far as ripping pages out of the log-book.  In fact 31 pages were ripped out of the log-book.

The Ethiopian fatal flight is even more bizarre given the heightened awareness of the importance to follow this simple memory item shown in my video.

A world wide emergency Airworthiness Directive was issued by Boeing following the first crash explaining how to recognize the failure and step by step to do the stabilizer correct/cutout procedure just as I show in my video.  A procedure that take just a few second to accomplish.

.

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Whalley