Self-defence in Pattaya

[Limey]

As a Pattaya resident with many years of experience in teaching WingTsun in the UK, it seems to me that there might be a number of expats, bar-owners and possibly their ladies who would be interested in learning effective self-defence here in Patts.

Like every experienced martial artist I abhor violence as a way of settling disputes, but sometimes violence has a way of walking in the door and refusing to go away - in which case it is good if you can fight fire with fire.

WingTsun (WT) is the Chinese kungfu style made famous by Bruce Lee, who took it to the USA and ended a period of several centuries during which it had only been taught to Chinese as a highly secret art. Having tried almost every other martial art since the age of 16, I eventually discovered WT and am totally convinced that if you need it to be, it is the most vicious, devastating unarmed martial art (it is not a sport!) of them all - a highly intelligent system that believes in attack as the best form of defence, and in giving the opponent no chance of avoiding these attacks.

Apart from being highly effective and simple to learn (only four major techniques), WT relies on natural movements and is therefore very healthy for the muscles and joints - no high kicks or harmful stresses. If you have back problems or painful joints, WT will usually cure them automatically. It also gradually makes you fitter without having to do push-ups, pound a bag and work up an almighty sweat etc.

If I can get a group of at least one dozen people together who would like to learn, I'll start a once-a-week class of 1-2-hour sessions in April, with an introductory session somewhere central, so please respond on the board or PM me to show interest. This is not really a business venture, just a way to pass on a valuable skill in a relaxed atmosphere to people who would like to be able to handle trouble if it comes their way, but have perhaps always seen the martial arts as a blood-and-snot pastime where you get hurt.

It doesn't matter how old or unfit you are - I mean that - I guarantee that once you start, you will be amazed at the sheer cleverness of this art. It's the most valuable thing I have ever had the good luck to learn, and it will enrich your life while making you healthier - and learning is also great fun, with lots of laughs. I hope enough people are willing to come to an intro session in early April - no special clothing or kit required at any time - so pls let me know if you are interested.

I'm also putting this thread up on PattayaTalk, where I post as Bushcraft.

[ROIDFREAK]

Limey, ill be in Patts from June for a while, would be good to meet up and maybe train a bit.. I studied wingchun and shaolin fist Kung fu for a number of years, hold a black sash under sifu Yap Leong and am current undefeated British Heavyweight Sanshou Champion. I don't know about Wing Chun as a complete combat form as it severly lacks the grappling aspect and in real life situations, this is an absolute necessity to be well rounded, Its easy fighting a streetfighter or typical "hardman" to beat him with technical striking but the wrestling/locks/chokes are needed along with effective striking,especially when fighting against another guy trained in combat arts..what I did find is that Chi sao really made it easy when im pummelling for underhooks and especially close quarter blocking/parrying of blows..

[Limey]

Thanks Roidfreak, PM me when you're in town, it will be a pleasure to meet you.

WT rightly sees the skilled grappler as the most formidable opponent of all, and is designed to give him nothing to hold onto. We avoid going to ground wherever possible in a real situation, not because we can't win there too, but because the ground is a suicidal place to be if the fight is more than one-on-one. One-on-one is very rare anyway nowadays, it's not just the Thais who are 'unfair' ha ha. There's no point in grunting around on the floor with someone in a puddle of beer and Britvic while his mates are busy breaking chairs and pool-cues across your back. Also, it's amazing how many uninvolved bystanders will suddenly decide to pitch in on the other guy's side if you make him look the underdog by prolonging the fight. 3-4 seconds should usually decide matters - we are surgeons not butchers, and the scalpel is as deadly as the meataxe in trained hands.

[ROIDFREAK]

Yeah, in MMA sure but as I get older I start to question the necessity of "well rounded" for self defense. A Muay Thai guy with a good sprawl is not well rounded but will ruin your day. I use nearly pure judo, almost never throw a punch- works for me. Although using the same throw every time is getting to be a bit of a joke with my mates here in Pats.

 

I know a fair number of people in security and law enforcement that use WC, works for them. If it suits your physical attributes, personal style, and you can avoid the politics of that particular martial art then it should do the job quite nicely.

 

 

Milo I agree that being well versed in either a striking or grappling art but not both will still be very effective against someone of average skill but going up against another highly skilled fighter for example the likes of Mark Coleman or Kevin Randleman, Mark Kerr or Kao Parisian,etc..real fighters with awesome ground skills, no way is a muaythai guy gonna stop the takedown just with a decent sprawl in probability unless he lands a knockout shot fast..likewise a pure BJJ/wrestler guy is going to get put to sleep pretty damn fast against someone like Mirko Crocop-probably the best sprawl in the business and yet he is also one of the most lethal kickers, knocking people senseless with head kicks..the pure grappler just doesnt have the necessary conditioning to strikes and more importantly the skill/knowledge how to slip strikes effectively.When I worked security/close protection the guys I got into confrontations with were mostly (from my opinion due to how easly they were handled)untrained..but the few times I fought a skilled opponent it was very different.

 

IMHO I don't think a pure striker or pure grappler would pose any serious problem for me in a street situation - I am pretty sure I would easily take most purebreed strikers to unfamiliar territory on the floor or strike fast/hard enough to stop a grappler without advanced striking experience as in both cases the smartest thing would be to put your opponent in unfamiliar territory-easy to do if the opponent is one dimensional(striker/grappler) but very difficult if he is skilled at both.

 

That being said even though I am pretty much equally skilled on the ground or standing, I favour standing, strategy often referred to as "sprawl and brawl".

My favourite all time fighter is Marco Ruas - I like his method and use a similar approach.

Edited March 4, 2009 by ROIDFREAK

[ROIDFREAK]

Thanks Roidfreak, PM me when you're in town, it will be a pleasure to meet you.

WT rightly sees the skilled grappler as the most formidable opponent of all, and is designed to give him nothing to hold onto. We avoid going to ground wherever possible in a real situation, not because we can't win there too, but because the ground is a suicidal place to be if the fight is more than one-on-one. One-on-one is very rare anyway nowadays, it's not just the Thais who are 'unfair' ha ha. There's no point in grunting around on the floor with someone in a puddle of beer and Britvic while his mates are busy breaking chairs and pool-cues across your back. Also, it's amazing how many uninvolved bystanders will suddenly decide to pitch in on the other guy's side if you make him look the underdog by prolonging the fight. 3-4 seconds should usually decide matters - we are surgeons not butchers, and the scalpel is as deadly as the meataxe in trained hands.

 

I agree mate-I much prefer to stand and 100% true grappling on the ground is a last resort in a street situation unless the fight is truly 1 on 1. You can strike with multiple opponents but trying to grapple with multiple opponents, especially on the ground is a lose-lose situation. I'm not usually the guy who pushes for the ground, but if I end up there and the opportunity presents itself, I'll try and finish the fight there and then. This would be different if my opponent was just too good with his striking, then I'd use a clinch/throw and put him in unfamiliar territory, thus taking away his main strength.

 

"We are surgeons with a scalpel, not butchers with an axe" - I love that!!

[Zieke Reiger]

can't we all just get along?

[ROIDFREAK]

can't we all just get along?

 

Great response, really contributing well to the thread..Just so you know myself, Limey and Katandmilo are all martial artists and share some similar interests therefore discuss/debate them..but then again a threadfucker like you wouldnt know what that means..

[Millard]

Limey, all those times you and I hung out, I had no idea you were a wing chun practitioner! I've also studied Wing Chun (WC). My brother is a WC teacher. WC is not my primary style, but I think it's one of the most practical for the average person. Unlike kickboxing and grappling (ironically, arts that I've trained in since childhood), WC can be practiced effectively by both genders and older people. Rather than brute force and aggressiveness, WC functions on intelligent efficiency of motion.

 

Actually, I should have guessed you were a seasoned martial artist by your gentleness and peacefulness. That is a sign of a true martial artist.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Millard

[Limey]

Thanks for those comments Millard old mate. I had no idea you studied WC either, just goes to show that it is an art that discourages posturing and makes for modesty. Hope to do the rounds with you in Patts again soon - a quiet pint and several noisy ones

[caltexman]

Very interesting subject and various opinions.

 

It is always interesting to read and hear from guys who really do know what they talking about.

 

My martial art is running like fuck.......................lol.

 

Got to say that that WC style certainly sounds interesting.

 

Thanks guys for the info.

[ROIDFREAK]

Limey, all those times you and I hung out, I had no idea you were a wing chun practitioner! I've also studied Wing Chun (WC). My brother is a WC teacher. WC is not my primary style, but I think it's one of the most practical for the average person. Unlike kickboxing and grappling (ironically, arts that I've trained in since childhood), WC can be practiced effectively by both genders and older people. Rather than brute force and aggressiveness, WC functions on intelligent efficiency of motion.

 

Actually, I should have guessed you were a seasoned martial artist by your gentleness and peacefulness. That is a sign of a true martial artist.

 

Each martial art has its weaknesses and strengths, the primary weakness of Wing Chun is lack of conditioning when compared to for instance muaythai or boxing. Wing Chun do not train with full contact strikes, thus when a practitioner is not used to hitting/geting hit/blockingand parrying full power/speed strikes he will have problems in reality when he actually gets hit. There is no way around this. Older people practising WC as an art and using it as an effective combat system for self defence in the real world are two very different concepts.

Edited March 5, 2009 by ROIDFREAK

[ROIDFREAK]

Or to turn it around, the need for conditioning could be considered a weakness of boxing and Muay Thai:) Classical Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is very much like Wing Chun in that respect. They don't believe in doing any technique that requires much in the way of physical attributes. If it can't be done by any guy walking in off the street then they think it's no good. When I trained with Renzo Gracie he would always say "you really strong" which is BJJ for "you suck". Some Muay styles emphasize conditioning more than others, a few seem super technical. Most won't even consider weight training. For MMA obviously you need to be well rounded and have great conditioning, but I don't think basic self defense should require the same. Just a different game.

LOL..I have trained with Royler as am member of Royler Gracie Team Uk and been on a seminar with Royce..even those guys both suck big time at striking - Royce is the worse fo the two:) I dont believe, and it has even been combat proven that BJJ alone is no good when up against somone who is well versed in standup and ground..This has been repeatedly proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by the likes of Kazushi Sakuraba destroying all the gracies and totally neutralising their jujitsu, often giving his back(which as you know is suicidal to do to a decent BJJ guy) and still coming out on top, why?-because he can strike aswell as he can grapple and being proficient in BJJ alone without conditioning for strikes is not enough. Royce gave up against sakuraba after Sakuraba kicked the hell out of Royces legs(muaythai page 1, lesson 1-if a man can't stand, he can't fight:))

Edited March 5, 2009 by ROIDFREAK

[ROIDFREAK]

Actually Sakuraba was not just better conditioned and well rounded, his technique was of of a different lineage and they were not prepared or able to counter it- which in my mind is even more impressive. But yeah, given two equally skilled grapplers the stronger one will win. Still in boxing it is difficult for a very skilled lightweight, to beat a moderately skilled heavyweight, where in more technical arts those size differences are more easily neutralized. I enjoy BJJ because of the ease in which I lose to highly skilled, smaller opponents- I can spar 40kg up or down in weight and have all ranges of difficulty in opponents either way. This is more difficult to do in boxing with it's comparatively limited repertoire, no? So the idea of a more technical, but less conditioning focused striking art has some appeal.

 

By conditioning Im referring to, for example the conditioning of sakuraba's shins/legs compared to Royce's-because Royce was not used to being kicked Muaythai style in the thighs and his shins were brittle(as seen when he winced as both their shins collided and sakuraba didnt even flinch) I meant he was less conditioned to the impact..both had incredible stamina to fight for that crazy amount of time.. Also Sakuraba's techniques are just a different level, like when he applies a standing kimura after giving his back then jumps/rolls backwards into a submission.

 

I understand what u mean about a lightweight boxer and a heavier weight guy, due to conditioning the heavyweight will be way more durable..but in Canada I went to high school with a good friend named Bryon Mackie.We also boxed at the same club .He weighed about 125lbs max at the time when I was 220..He was All-Ontario champion and Golden Gloves and went to the commonwealth games winning a silver medal..he then turned pro in his early 20s..In sparring, pure boxing I couldn't touch him - literally he was so fast you couldnt see the punches coming and he could drop his guard, be 3 inches away from my face and just effortlessly bob/weave making me miss completely 95% of any punches i threw to his face..this he did with pure skill and awesome timing - nothing to do with being conditioned either..

 

Dont get me wrong, My main trainer in London is Mickey Papas-the Head coach of Team Titan, and his system which he created is wing chun/Muaythai and Pankration based called the Wingjitsu Academy.. There is definitely alot of concepts that I learned from Wingchun that I combine with other techniques into being a complete fighter - a wingchun technique/drill called "sticking hands" makes me much more efficient when pummelling for underhooks in the clinch and controlling an opponent in veryclose quarters without having to take the fight to the ground, also the famed Bruce Lee "inch punch" is devastating once u learn to use it.

Edited March 5, 2009 by ROIDFREAK

[ROIDFREAK]

Actually not just a different level, different background. Sak uses a lot of Catch wrestling techniques, that was not so much a Kimura as a Top Wristlock. So whereas BJJ/Judo is position before submission, Catch is submission from any position. It's less elegant, as it leads to some "forced" submissions, but can be very effective (witness Sak). BJJ assume weakness so spends a lot of time maneuvering two legs against one arm, two arms against a neck, whereas Catch assumes a certain level of conditioning and goes for two arms against one arm, one arm against neck etc. It can really throw off the BJJ game, Gracie's don't look to defend a submission from a traditionally dominate position (the back). Sak learned the Gracie game, they refused to learn his game, they got spanked.

 

http://gnarlmaster.tripod.com/gnarlmaster/...lewristlock.htm

(For anyone out there who thinks the Japanese invented submissions, Western wrestlers used to beat them in submission matches on a regular basis- and visa versa)

 

 

I find that kind of thing really cool. A bit like Rodney King/Crazy Monkey. A boxing curriculum focused on self-defense over ring skills.

 

 

There's a lot of stuff in CMA that is extremely applicable to MMA and SD, it just tends to get hidden among all the mumbo jumbo or taught by "masters" who have done nothing but forms their whole lives so don't even understand the application of the move even when you can see it on the TV being used in the UFC LOL

 

You're right about the catch wrestlers, Karl Gotch was awesome and I have read some of his stuff.

LOL @ "masters"who have done fuck all and for sure I hate forms-once you have learnt to apply the correct technique, forms IMHO are worthless, except maybe just for warming up.

[pablo]

what use is win chung when the thais are going here in Bangkok

 

http://www.geocities.com/knifefighting/

[Limey]

Good comments guys, but you're talking about sport here - even MMA has strict RULES on e.g. not biting off noses. I can only speak for WingTsun as I understand it, and that is designed for the no-rules-whatever scenario of the street. The whole point is to dish out punishment - if absolutely necessary - without giving your opponent the slightest chance of returning the favour. It's actually an attack system, not a self-defence system. So no conditioning to take punishment is required, though I have to say I took plenty during training for the higher grades. That's what makes skilled WT people so nightmarish - it's practically impossible to hit them unless by initial surprise attack.

That's why I'm offering this to presumably not-so-young expats who might want to learn - when you're older the last thing you want to do is trade punches with some young, pissed-up lout who is far fitter and more aggressive than you. You can't take punishment as easily when you're beyond, say, 50 -and your body takes much longer to recover afterwards too. If a situation is really intolerable, beyond the talking stage, you need to finish it with a devastating attack that brooks no argument, then walk away in regret. That's what I teach, along with deescalation techniques, a bit of psychology and legal aspects etc.. I suspect that quite a few people would like to be able to respond in this way when there's no other way, but have never had any martial arts or fight training and therefore lack the confidence to confront bullies. They have a chance to change that now, in a non-gym environment, in street clothes, where they will not get hurt. So come on guys, PM me and confirm interest in learning this - you'll find the intro session a real eye-opener, like nothing you've ever seen - if I can get enough people to make it worthwhile holding one.

[ROIDFREAK]

Good comments guys, but you're talking about sport here - even MMA has strict rules on e.g. not biting off noses. I can only speak for WingTsun as I understand it, and that is designed for the no-rules-whatever scenario of the street. The whole point is to dish out punishment - if absolutely necessary - without giving your opponent the slightest chance of returning the favour. It's actually an attack system, not a self-defence system. So no conditioning to take punishment is required, though I have to say I took plenty during training for the higher grades. That's what makes skilled WT people so nightmarish - it's practically impossible to hit them unless by initial surprise attack.

That's why I'm offering this to presumably not-so-young expats who might want to learn - when you're older the last thing you want to do is trade punches with some young, pissed-up lout who is far fitter and more aggressive than you. You can't take punishment as easily when you're beyond, say, 50 -and your body takes much longer to recover afterwards too. If a situation is really intolerable, beyond the talking stage, you need to finish it with a devastating attack that brooks no argument, then walk away in regret. That's what I teach, along with deescalation techniques, a bit of psychology and legal aspects etc.. I suspect that quite a few people would like to be able to respond in this way when there's no other way, but have never had any martial arts or fight training and therefore lack the confidence to confront bullies. They have a chance to change that now, in a non-gym environment, in street clothes, where they will not get hurt. So come on guys, PM me and confirm interest in learning this - you'll find the intro session a real eye-opener, like nothing you've ever seen - if I can get enough people to make it worthwhile holding one.

Mate ill def pm u when in town.. I agree with alot of what u say - I have no problem employing a pre-emptive headbutt too ,once I realise that talking is not going to resolve the situation or if the guy decides to try and put his hands on me- there is an actual skill/method to do this effectively aswell as defend from one which you probably already know..As you said, the aim is to win by any means necessary in a self defence situation..using a set of car/house keys or a pocket full of change, hot cup of coffee or spitting in the aggressor's face following it with a straight blast, all things I have used effectively in various situations ;)

Edited March 5, 2009 by ROIDFREAK

[ROIDFREAK]

what use is win chung when the thais are going here in Bangkok

 

http://www.geocities.com/knifefighting/

Unless my opponent has a GUN, I wouldnt be worried - he'd be eating that fucking knife

[Limey]

[Gman-KM]

Hi Guys:

When is the Wing Tsun group starting please let me know? (gerry [at] kravmagathailand [dot] com is me direct email.

 

Wing Chun, Wing Tsun, Ving Tsun etc, sure there are many "styles" & variations in how WT is training. (some excellent, some not so Reality Based orientated).

Sounds like you got a very good Reality Based WT Background.

While I have not directly learned WT, I have done bits & pieces of Jeet Kune DO here & there. In fact

we got Sifu Mark Stewart www.ijkd.com & new Bangkok self defense martial arts center www.boxer-rebellion.com where they teach JKD. Marks current trainer is Ted Wong, who got the last version of JKD where Bruce with his "daily decrease" scaled it all down to a few simple techniques.

 

I am 25 years now in & out of martial arts & back in mid 80s when a teen doing mugendo full contact kickboxing in ireland, I read just about every WING CHUN book I could get my hands on. I remember reading a very good WIng Chun book by Simon Lau which came out in mid-80s who back then (maybe still is around?) was a well known Wing Chun Sifu in London in UK.

 

once in Cologne in Germany while out in the shopping streets, I wandering up to a Wing Tsun school & there they were teaching a very good Street Reality Based "Dirty Tricks" version of WT. No kung fu suits etc. train in casuals, & I was very impressed with the "style" of WT I saw that day, it was all orientated for the street. (I think they did Muay Thai in that WT Gym too, & I could see other street stuff worked in there too.)

I think regardless of someones Martial Art style, if they soup it up with a bit of "Geoff Thompson" you super charge what you learn & do. Geoff got some excellent stuff & I watch, even though I have the DVD since the late 90s, his Real Punching DVD over & over again to this day I always get something new I can work into my own krav maga training.

 

Have read many books on WT JKD & of course since video/DVD came, I am very keen the Wing Chun Center Line

Idea & what has been expanded by the likes of JKD Instructor Paul Vunak fighting.net , (He got some good DVDs or see youtube.com for Paul Vunak clips) & indeed Bruce Lee himself, (we will leave Bruces movie work aside. I refer to Bruce Lee real life martial arts works), Bruce himself according to many witnesses to a few scraps Bruce was involved in before he became "famous" said, when the pressure was on, Bruce went right to aggressive forward moving Wing Chun Straight Blast down the Center Line of this opponent.

 

In fact, the famous great Professional Boxer Jack Dempsey, who considered Western Boxing to be a Self Defense System ( as well as a sport. on a side note, in his Book Championship Fighting, Jack Dempsey considers the modern style of boxing which evolved approx pre-WWII after he himself drew the first ever $ 1 Million gate in the sport of boxing, when the "businessman" with no boxing knowledge began to hire inferior trainers to bring on potential Pro Boxers as a "business investment" Dempsey says the real Art of Boxing the "style" of great boxers such as him, "gentleman' Jim Corbett etc in the era just before his 1 million gate , was ruined for ever. In fact Dempsey felt responsible himself for part of this).

 

What do I mean & what has his got to do with WT?..... A LOT!

 

If you look at Jack Dempsey Art of Boxing ( and his contempary boxers) rare if ever was there a "Jab" they used an excellent punch called (assuming your orthodox stance) called "The Straight Lead" (Left) with the Drop Step or Falling Step, which was done with full power, the Fist held Vertical & the BOTTOM 3 knuckles used to hit with. The Straight Lead was power with Drop/Falling Step, with the punch hitting opponent before the Drop Step foot hit the group.

The Straight Lead was also delivered down the "Center Line" & om Dempseys book (which if you google for it you can find as free ebook download), the parries are very like the "blocks" open would see in WT.

 

Point being, in the latter last stage of Bruce Lees Jeet Kune Do, Bruce studied the Straight Lead ala Dempsey & incorporated it with his Wing Chun background , street fighting background & full contact sparring with his inner senior students. All this mixed with a fast aggressive Straight Blast right down the opponents Center Line makes if trained with Real Self Defense in mind, is an excellent Tool to borrow from Wing Chun/Tsun or JKD.

 

In fact in Tactical Krav Maga we have a very similar thing to the WT "Straight Blast" only was call ours "Burst & Chain" which basically means with max aggression burst in, fast, first, forward moving, fooking aggressive, furious on the street attacker, with non stop blast of strikes/dirty shots to weaker targets. Very similar to the Straight Blast down Center line I have seen Street Orientated with street experience WT WC or JKD Instructors do.

 

(Tactical Krav Maga we pressure test all with reasonable to full contact, depending on the students desire, & we are very stripped down & simple with few pre-learned techniques. While other versions of Krav Maga are all Technique based with compliant training partner, & no real fighting or contact. I myself throw in a good bit of the Geoff Thompson way & modern variations of basic WWII & before "Combatives")

 

Is it called "Bil Jee" (stabbing fingers) in WT? meaning Finger Strikes to the eyes? Another great skill of WT & other systems too, which is easy to learn, & with a "win no matter what" aggressive mind set, can help stun a street attackers until you can make a fast escape. Nothing like a good eye poke or finger whip to the eyes to buy the extra second to run like hell or to finish the job. & easily mastered by the over 50s.

 

Yes, Wing Tsun when trained with RBSD in mind, & plenty of examples video on internet of WT trained & applied this way is a very handy style to know. As I said, I learned over the years bits & pieces of it here & there mostly from books, with a few years kickboxing experience years back I found other martial arts skills can be on a basic level learned that way & applied it to my own training, years before I got into Krav Maga.

 

And Assuming you do not have False Teeth, as Limey referred to his this first post. Bite!

When in doubt or with your back to the wall, bite like a crazy jack russell terrier with rabies,

& I guarantee you, I seen some hard dudes freeze or screech like a little girl when you give

them a good nip of the old fangs! or so I have heard. ahem! ;-)

 

What Assoc or Instructor is your WT from in the UK?

 

Sounds like they got the right idea re street self defense?

 

Also let us know, when your Pattaya Wing Tsun Self defense class is on, while I may not be able to attend total regular,

I would love, for personal interest, to learn the basics of good Wing Tsun, if it is ok for me to attend please?

 

My the way, the link in this thread about the KNIFE FIGHTING in BANGKOK.

I am not sure if that studio is still there, I think the Thai Lady Instructor teaches in Udon Tani now.

They are part of a group called AMOK see www.knifefighting.com under a USA Law Officer called

Tom Sotois (I communicated on email with him & he is a gentleman & other tells me too), more to

the point, AMOK believe in OFFENSIVE KNIFE USE. As in if for example, some one tries to mug you

(assuming law allows you to carry knife, certain USA states do) at an ATM Machine, instead of hitting

the Mugger, AMOK trained people will pull out a Blade, probably covertly & if Force Contingency calls

for it, they will use their Knife very fast & very trained in an Offensive Manner for Self Defense.

 

AMOKS South Africa Chapter, due to the way a mugging is done is South Africa which is the

Mugger/Attacker will ambush you blinf & stab you to death or near death, then leisurely cut the wallet

out of your pants or cut the strap off your hand bag, AFTER they have gutted you usually to death,

with the knife.

So AMOKS South African Chapter have last I read which was 2 years back over 400 real life full on

violent incidents on record where their members where knife attacked by hardened street criminals

in SA & in the 400+ incidents used their KNIVES OFFENSIVELY for SELF DEFENSE with success.

(in other words, they gutted their attackers like a fish, with legal held & used blades using

their AMOK style. which I believe is fairly hardcore training. They do use some Unarmed Disarms

of Knife Attackers, but thats only a fall back, as they carry knives full time (law permitting) so while

I palm, eye strike, or open hand slap etc if attacked, this dudes do not bother with such time wasting

activities & pull their blade & use it on the street criminal).

 

I have been attacked with a Knife to my eye on one occasion or broken bottles slashed at my face

(all successfully defended against, & me alone each time... bad timing eh! LOL!) & I tell you the fear

level I felt was 1000%+ higher than the normal fear you feel in a street confrontation. Lucky for

me, fear turned to massive aggression & with self defense training over the years, was able to

remove edge attack weapons each time, & deal with the scumbags who jumped me.

 

Good news is AMOK with Tom Sotis are having their annual seminar in Pattaya soon on offensive knife fighting, & while in 2007 I could not attend, this year I really hope I can.

 

As a martial artists, there is never mastery, it is a life long journey of learning.

 

To Quote Bruce Lee on Wing Chun/Tsun he called it " A Great Fighting Style"

 

Good luck with the WT group, & I would be love to attend a a beginner to WT, as I

can really see the RBSD value when WT is instructed with the street self defence in mind.

 

Warmest Regards

 

Gerry Instructor Tactical Krav Maga Self Defense Pattaya Thailand

[Limey]

Hi Gerry, VERY interesting post for me, thanks for taking the time to respond so fully. Can't possibly answer all that as it deserves for time reasons, but will email you. I think it would be very interesting to meet up. You are e.g. bang on the nail about Jack Dempsey and clearly know what you are talking about. Boxing really is a lost art now, the trainers have lost all the old knowledge that the greats had. WT (which is also known as Chinese Boxing, as you probably know) still has it. Not enough interest for a class (yet?), but let's meet up either way. Geoff Thompson is a great respecter of WT, by the way. I've chatted to him at WT seminars, and have also translated 2 of his books into German. ATB

[Limey]

Right Milo, also reminds me of Tae-Kwon-Do tournaments, where the gamesmanship can be more important than actual skill. Launch an attack, then quickly turn your back when the opponent counter-attacks. Striking the back is illegal in TKD, hey presto - the opponent is disqualified and you win. All nothing but floor gymnastics in my opinion, maybe looks good at Insomnia but no use for the street.

It goes on everywhere though. Take Practical Pistol shooting, something I was heavily involved in during the 80's. Originally that meant competing with a bog-standard, out-of-the-box semi-automatic that maybe had a trigger job and the mag release slicked up for a speedy reload. It then rapidly degenerated into gamesmen turning up with pistols that had cost them thousands to 'tune up', with mag-chutes, red-dot sights, 4-inch muzzle compensators and red-dot telescopic sights weighing several pounds. The resulting clunker practically had to be brought to the event in a pickup. 'Practical pistol' rapidly became a joke thanks to these form-over-substance people - and most of the unarmed martial arts have been doing the same for so long that seasoned street-fighters have no respect for them whatsoever.

[Gman-KM]

Thats great to have done a training ( and work translate) for Geoff Thompson. He really is a "guru"

of real self defense, & what gets even more respect, re this bio "Watch my back" book, is it all started

due to his fear & depression as a young man & how he made himself change his life my facing his worst

fear, "confrontation" by becoming a bouncer all those years ago, which of course, caused him to relook

at the Traditional training, & modify it for the street.

 

A friend of mine, who was a "shirley valintine" housewife (ex husband grinding her down mentally non stop)

at age 40 start the Krav Maga training in Dublin in 2003 (she had no MA experience, & was not into fitness either then),

just a 40 year old house wife, whose confidence was ground down re nagging hubbie. Long story short,

last year, (or maybe 2007) She with some others completed Geoff Thompsons "Mastery" self defense program, the one where you have do a full weekend personally with Geoff training, each month for 10 months. And she is now certified as a Self Protection Instructor under Geoff Thompson. He really helped her, on the "self help/self belief" end of things too.

I do not personally know Geoff, but since I was buying his stuff since the mid 90s, in Ireland & then getting from over here, He was also kind with his time, to email me back & answer an occasional question re his opinion on Self Defense.

Now he is going on to re Watch My Back hitting the Cinemas, to what might be Hollywood fame & more power to him too, his a great example not only for Reality Based Self Defense, but Success & change your life stuff.

 

 

on WT an internet WT contact in Ireland, I was a "forum friend with" a WT instructor Aidan C I think, he teaches a street orientated versions of WT in Dublin. I had clip on youtube.com of me messing about with the heavy bag,

doing a playful demo of a Geoff Thompson fence, moving into a Combative Slap Elbow Knee with forward moving aggression. My Wing Tsun online friend, saw it, & he emailed me & said "Nice Wing Tsun Gerry!", & went on to explain my (and its not the best demo either, my skill is not wonderful on this clip which was 2006) the Wing Tsun friend, told me what his on his street reality orientated Wing Tsun more or less exactly what is his own key WT street move.

I thought he was joking with me. Here is my Combatives Krav Maga Video Clip Fun Demo he called "Nice Wing Tsun!" (I hope he was not taking the pee in good fun out of me LOL )

 

Brings me to a theory I have, based on how orientals Kung Fu & Karate in Okinawa before the Japanese took the karate & regimented it. (training in lines, gi's, belts, formality etc), the oriental "Master" held Oriental students back traditionally for years before they showed them the "real" karate or kung fu. All this sitting in a Horse Stance for years or doing Sanchin Gojo Ryu kata over & over for years to "test the students dedication" well us westerns, when oriental martial arts came must have got a even more so water down version, as no way would Western mentalities sit in, say a Horse Stance or do Sanchin over & over for 3 years, & learn nothing else to test commitment. (sure Bruce Lee s famous challenge in San Franciso when he beat his challenger Kung Fu fighter Wong Jak Man, & indeed Bruce used the "Straight Blast" of his then modified Wing Chun to hammer his opponent, after Jak Man turned out to be harder to beat, than Bruce estimated. That was all over the SFO Chinese community anger at Bruce teach Kung Fu "secrets" to "round eyes", thats us white honkies! Bruce was 1/4 German blood. )

 

Any to get to my long winded getting to the point of my theory, I reckon if you went back 100 years or more to the original way alot Okinawa TE (or Karate as it was later called which was very kung fu influenced. Uechi Ryu an Okinawa Karate Style, the stance is not unlike the more tradition older versions of Wing Chun.). Anyway I reckon all these oriental MAs in the original form, would have looked very similar to what the likes of Skyes & Fairbrain developed which later became the "Combatives" as famously taught to the OSS, or was is OSE & the WWII Allied Commandos.

 

 

Re teaching martial arts in Pattaya, I found out the hard way, (that means I put a bunch of ads in the Pattaya & BKK Post papers a few years back, which cost a fortune, with out the anticipated response), & a few Thai martial arts instructor told me too. It appears (we will leave the Muay Thai sector aside on this, as farang including myself originally come here to experience MT in Siam or for those into in & skilled enough to fight on a serious level). Thais in general its seems do not value or just are not into the idea of learning "self defense skills" plus many for various reasons will not learn from a Westerner. And then in Pattaya, with people going & coming, & not too much of an executive jobs expat community to draw from in Pattaya (Bangkok is different, re the expats to teach) it is actually quite difficult to get any decent number of students, who are based in Pattaya. Even if they have "money" their all on Thai prices thinking, or those on limited budgets, so after the beer or the women, learning say Krav Maga (which with me its just about 170 B a class, if someone commits to a few classes, which is a very fair price.) learning KM etc just is not on their radar.

One experienced Self Defense Instructor I know, goes to Singapore for 2 weeks each month, & makes his money over there, re teaching civilians & some security contracts. In Dublin I used to have 15 - 20 students a class with minimal advertising. Here I usually have 3 - 4 on average a class. (Unless your teaching WTF TKD to kids, thats where the interest is over there). So if you got a handful, even if your teaching to cover costs, like a hobby, which is what I do re local class, your doing very very well. (Its different when we do the Tactical Krav Maga seminars here, as we got all the TKM Schools across the world to pull from, re a fly in KM holiday to Thailand).

 

So, I would say, get your WT group going, even it you just got 3 or 4 people, & if your training outside, etc or keep an occasional posting on the forums, or recruit friends from the pub. ( i avoid the pub scene, so I am missing out on plugging into getting a few students from the "local"). If you active in networking about Pattaya which i am not, re work etc. Then you might recruit a bit of interest, asking 50+ contacts to come try it out etc.

 

I am certainly at the ready! Awaiting! As I am keen to learn as a beginner to learn when you start the

Pattaya Wing Tsun group. It is a great idea you have re your original post & for sure I know you got high quality training to offer.

 

I have plenty of pads, focus mitts, & kick shields, rubber knives & shall be delighted to bring them along to the WT group if you need any stuff like that. The GF would learn too but shes 6 months expecting so she shall be on hold for a while, & shes a right goer in the KM! LOL!

Its actually, when one is into martial arts with a great interest, it will be great to be a beginner student & have a new worth while system to learn, as being the instructor all the time re KM, can be a bit like a job. I always had a longer term goal of learning a bit of kung fu, for later in life, moving towards internal systems, in case my knees or joints start to ache in a few years!

 

Yes, please drop me an email when you have time.

 

Sounds like you have been around the UK Martials Arts scene for years? I love to find online old copies

of Fighter Magazine from the 80s. It was a great MA mag!

What ever happened, that London Kung Fu Sifu, a real pretty boy who used to train Samatha Fox & all the page 3 girls

in Self Defense in the 80s. David Lea? ( He was not WT? he was kung fu?). I wonder could he really have done it on the street! (Nice long permed 80s hair he had! ;-0 )

 

Any help I can give you drop us an email & delighted to meet up when you got a chance.

 

Cheers

 

Gerry Krav Maga Self Defense Pattaya Thailand

[Gman-KM]

Check out this, I saw this on youtube (with no sound)

Its Wing Tsun ?

I like how, it can "feel" & react without looking, I bet that guys

Wing Tsun would be quite street orientated, I am sure I heard

his name. I think he got an Instructor in Australian with a good rep?

 

 

Any links to clips you can post up of what is "good" WT from the RBSD point of view?

 

Cheers

 

Gerry

[Limey]

Agree with Milo 100%, there's a bit of an ego-trip going on in that chi-sao demo. The student is a rank beginner, is not attacking in any way and obviously can't cope with his instructor's attacks. Personally I would never put a student through that, as it really can undermine confidence. And what would it prove anyway? Only that I need mental masturbation of some kind.

It's Wing Chun, and yes, the opponent only gets minimal visual attention because the eyes can be fooled, while the nerves in the arms cannot. The direction and pressure tell you what his intentions are - provided you stay in contact of course, and that's the key.

Gerry, thanks for the offer of training kit and the advice about getting students in Thailand. I'll get back to you and the others who have expressed interest towards the end of the month, then arrange a meet for an intro. You and I will have a great deal to talk about, that's for sure. For links to good WT, just google WingTsun, EWTO or Leung Ting - loads of video material on the web.