Retirement Visa problem - New Rules

[SteveX08]

12 minutes ago, Tarl said:

Has it been worked out yet what exactly they require/accept to go down the monthly route? Is it simply your bank book showing 65k coming into it each month?

Need to be able to show that it comes from overseas.

[flynn]

Means more people will go the monthly income route.   Sure it will cost a little more with transfer fees, but you will still only need 800,000 in total 65,000 per month) and you have the advantage that you can use the money to live on and it isn’t stuck in the bank.
Or go to your home country every two years and get a new 12 month O-A visa (leave Thailand and re-enter just before the first 12 months is up and you’ll get a new admitted to stay date giving you a further 12 months .  No need to show proof of funds in any Thai bank.

That could be easy for people have the money back home,


Quite easy really if you haven’t burnt your bridges


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Oukiva]

38 minutes ago, Lok Jit said:

There are around 2 Million X Pats living here..Many will not be able to do this so they will either Not obey this new Law or move to a much easier country to live in..Some will Flat out disobey....Think Immigrations is having a problem now? Just Wait                                      

As others already pointed at, this is the global number of expatriates in Thailand; a number probably coming from WikiPedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Thailand#Expatriates

This has been widely discussed on ThaiVisa when US & UK embassies stopped providing letters, but nobody seems to have really precises statistics. So very approximatively :

- 300'000 : number of farang expats in Thailand

- 100'000 : number of farang expats on Marriage or Retirement visa or extension

- - 40'000  of them using embassy letter (last year)

- - 30'000 of them using 400/800k method

So a "small difference" between 2 million and thirty thousand... 

[Geordie59]

My initial thought were,
How will they check you have the 800k in the bank for 3 months after issuing the visa extension?
Is it when you go for your 90 day extension? If you leave the country a few times every year you will possibly not make any 90 day reports during the year where the proof could be shown.
What happens if you go under the 800k during the 3 months after the extension is issued?
Isn't having the 800k in the bank supposed to show that you =have sufficient funds to live in the country for a full year?

I'm sure the picture will become clearer as time passes and there will no doubt be ways around the issues for those without the cash. Back to the old border runs or whatever.
And remember there is supposed to an election soon and that means a load of different changes will probably be introduced.
 

[davidge]

29 minutes ago, flynn said:

That could be easy for people have the money back home,

Quite easy really if you haven’t burnt your bridges


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

In the UK, you also require a Doctor’s certificate/letter but still a decent option for those who still go ‘home’ occasionally. You would only need together a new visa every ~2 years if you leave Thailand and re-enter just before the visa expires.

16 minutes ago, Oukiva said:

As others already pointed at, this is the global number of expatriates in Thailand; a number probably coming from WikiPedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Thailand#Expatriates

This has been widely discussed on ThaiVisa when US & UK embassies stopped providing letters, but nobody seems to have really precises statistics. So very approximatively :

- 300'000 : number of farang expats in Thailand

- 100'000 : number of farang expats on Marriage or Retirement visa or extension

- - 40'000  of them using embassy letter (last year)

- - 30'000 of them using 400/800k method

So a "small difference" between 2 million and thirty thousand... 

I don’t have the exact figure of Brit pensioners in Thailand, but under 5920. This is those getting a state pension.

Edit: according to the BBC, an estimated 41000 Brits live in Thailand, with another 10000 living part-time, of which 1163 are pensioners.

[Tarl]

52 minutes ago, SteveX08 said:

Need to be able to show that it comes from overseas.

So a bank statement from your overseas account and your thai bank account should be accepted then showing withdrawals from 1 and deposit into the other. Not read yet exactly what they will accept but hopefully that will suffice.

[forcebwithu]

29 minutes ago, Tarl said:

So a bank statement from your overseas account and your thai bank account should be accepted then showing withdrawals from 1 and deposit into the other. Not read yet exactly what they will accept but hopefully that will suffice.

From what I read you just need your Thai account showing money coming in from an international source. There was a discussion that this is a problem for those using Transferwise as they transfer money into your Thai account from another Thai bank, so nothing on the transfer to indicate it came from an international source.

[davidge]

IOs apparently complaining they don’t know how to apply new rules:

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/2019/02/01/new-retiree-visa-rules-bewilder-thai-immigration-source/

BANGKOK — Days after new rules changed how visas are processed for foreign retirees, immigration officials are already pushing back against them, according to sources inside the bureau.

Starting March 1, foreign retirees must either show a monthly income of at least 65,000 baht or hold a minimum of 800,000 baht in Thai banks. They must maintain that amount for three months after a visa or extension is granted, after which they can only take out half. The new rules also make unclear how long applicants must wait to learn whether their visas or extensions have been approved.

“We are discussing with the legal department what these new policies mean,” an immigration official involved in approving such applications said in an interview. “Right now we are all scrambling to find out what the procedures are.”

The source also said some operatives who oversee visa affairs will file memos to their commanders declaring that they are no longer sure how to process requests under the new regulations published Monday.

 

“We will ask them to reconsider,” said the official, who declined to give his name because he was not authorized to speak to the media.

Another official at the Immigration Bureau said the changes were ordered from the top after four embassies in Thailand – Britain, the United States, Denmark and Australia – stopped issuing affidavits certifying the monthly incomes of applicants from their respective countries.

“Therefore, the Immigration Bureau has to come up with its own methods of verifying the applicants’ financial status,” the source said on the same condition of anonymity.

Col. Nitipan Kanokvejyan, the officer who signed the new regulations, could not be reached for comment as of publication time.

Under the new rules, applicants for retirement visas must be 50 and up. They must either show evidence of monthly salaries of at least 65,000 baht transferred to a Thai bank account or balances of at least 800,000 baht in their Thai bank accounts.

The accounts have to bear the same names as the applicants. Spouses’ bank accounts are not eligible.

And the minimum amount of 800,000 baht must have been deposited two months before any visa application is filed, making that the mandatory balance for at least five months, plus application processing time.

The applicants (“aliens”) must continue to maintain at least 400,000 baht at all times, and the visa must be renewed yearly.

The change departed from previous rules which only required either an affidavits declaring a 65,000 baht salary or a one-time deposit of 800,000 baht at the time of application.

Reactions on Thaivisa, a webforum frequented by expats in Thailand, was overwhelmingly negative, with many commentators saying the regulations undercut claims from Thai officials that the deposit is to ensure they have sufficient resources to get by.

“Then why keep up the charade that this money is to cover living expenses if it can only be used six months out of the year,” user Connda wrote. “So…what’s next? What’s the next hammer to drop?”

“And I thought the 800,000 baht was for living expenses, not as an interest earner for the Thai banks!” user Madmitch vented.

[Tarl]

10 minutes ago, forcebwithu said:

From what I read you just need your Thai account showing money coming in from an international source. There was a discussion that this is a problem for those using Transferwise as they transfer money into your Thai account from another Thai bank, so nothing on the transfer to indicate it came from an international source.

Yeah I read that but thought it was at the time just an assumption and people were awaiting details. The criteria on the first page here says nothing at all about the source of the income it just says income. 

[forcebwithu]

4 minutes ago, Tarl said:

Yeah I read that but thought it was at the time just an assumption and people were awaiting details. The criteria on the first page here says nothing at all about the source of the income it just says income. 

This sure has generated a lot of assumptions and uncertainty. Posted in another thread on the same subject (@davidge, perhaps the two threads could be merged) is a link to an article the IO's don't know what to make of the procedures either. 

 

[kansuwan]

The bite will come in June, after which embassy-certified income statements issued in December will no longer be accepted for processing under the old rules.  

[Tarl]

No protocols/ procedures set out at all. Will be tough for IOs and even tougher  for consistency between offices.

[davidge]

2 threads merged. Hope the merged thread still makes sense.

 

[Oukiva]

1 hour ago, davidge said:

Reactions on Thaivisa, a webforum frequented by expats in Thailand, was overwhelmingly negative, with many commentators saying the regulations undercut claims from Thai officials that the deposit is to ensure they have sufficient resources to get by.

“Then why keep up the charade that this money is to cover living expenses if it can only be used six months out of the year,” user Connda wrote. “So…what’s next? What’s the next hammer to drop?”

“And I thought the 800,000 baht was for living expenses, not as an interest earner for the Thai banks!” user Madmitch vented.

Sorry but - IMHO - this has nothing to do with "giving" money to Thai banks, but it's always the same sad story :

• Thai Immigration make rules
• a small part of expats find a loophole and exploits it (with help of "agents") at large scale
• Thai Immigration has to modify its rules, on a stricter way, to stop use of this loophole... 

It's these expats' fault if rules become stricter, not Thai Immigration fault. 

[G Baht]

3 hours ago, Oukiva said:

As others already pointed at, this is the global number of expatriates in Thailand; a number probably coming from WikiPedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Thailand#Expatriates

This has been widely discussed on ThaiVisa when US & UK embassies stopped providing letters, but nobody seems to have really precises statistics. So very approximatively :

- 300'000 : number of farang expats in Thailand

- 100'000 : number of farang expats on Marriage or Retirement visa or extension

- - 40'000  of them using embassy letter (last year)

- - 30'000 of them using 400/800k method

So a "small difference" between 2 million and thirty thousand... 

Pattaya 103 FM interviewed the US Embassy Bangkok Consul General on 20 December 2018.  During the interview, the Counsel General stated that there are about 75,000 American citizens residing in Thailand on "long term stays."  (see the 9:33 mark in the video below)

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by G Baht
clarity

[Tarl]

1 hour ago, Oukiva said:

Sorry but - IMHO - this has nothing to do with "giving" money to Thai banks, but it's always the same sad story :

• Thai Immigration make rules
• a small part of expats find a loophole and exploits it (with help of "agents") at large scale
• Thai Immigration has to modify its rules, on a stricter way, to stop use of this loophole... 

It's these expats' fault if rules become stricter, not Thai Immigration fault. 

So what is the reason behind not allowing expats to access 800k baht for 5 months?

[expatdude]

11 minutes ago, Tarl said:

So what is the reason behind not allowing expats to access 800k baht for 5 months?

Reason? Are you new to Thailand?

[Tarl]

Just now, expatdude said:

Reason? Are you new to Thailand?

Hahaha fair point

[Oukiva]

2 hours ago, Tarl said:

So what is the reason behind not allowing expats to access 800k baht for 5 months?

This has been said by the Immigration Chief when he presented these new rules: 

Quoted from the ThaiVisa translation :

The new requirements are likely the result of immigration officials trying to put an end to the practice of visa agents // for a retirement extension.

[Tarl]

Just now, Oukiva said:

This has been said by the Immigration Chief when he presented these new rules: 

Quoted from the ThaiVisa translation :

The new requirements are likely the result of immigration officials trying to put an end to the practice of visa agents // for a retirement extension.

So they had no reason to impose 5 months and dressed it up with wording of are likely instead of are.

[Oukiva]

29 minutes ago, Tarl said:

So they had no reason to impose 5 months and dressed it up with wording of are likely instead of are.

I think that requiring people to keep 400k minimum on a long period (all year long) on their account is see by Thai Immigration as a way to prevent Agent to continue their illegal business. Depends how Immigration officers will verify that money history. I suppose we will have to wait 1 year to see if it's really working... or not. 

[Encora]

 

8 hours ago, Tarl said:

So a bank statement from your overseas account and your thai bank account should be accepted then showing withdrawals from 1 and deposit into the other. Not read yet exactly what they will accept but hopefully that will suffice.

Force be with you:
"From what I read you just need your Thai account showing money coming in from an international source. There was a discussion that this is a problem for those using Transferwise as they transfer money into your Thai account from another Thai bank, so nothing on the transfer to indicate it came from an international source."

I am not so sure, my understanding is that if you do the 65K/month way, you need to get that certified by your embassy as coming from outside. Whether the embassy will give you that confirmation if it was only money you sent from your o"seas account to Thailand monthly, rather then explicit pension, is unsure.

I wanted to go the 3 months 800K way next time, but maybe best belt and braces, starting sending 65K per month now, and topping it up to 800 K three months prior to visa application...

If only relying on 65K/month, it would be annoying to find at the end that your embassy won't give you confirmation that this is "income"
Mine won't, since I left my country of birth 45 years ago to emigrate to another country. It is the other country now where I hold my investments and pension, my birth country won't sign for that. the second country on;t sign anything because I am not a citizen, e.g. passportholder...

 

[Roadrunner]

  Why are they so Paranoid about Expats income anyway ? 

 There is no Welfare for Ferrangs living here, you cant sign on for benefits and get free housing , and don`t even try and say you are seeking asylum ...   Lol

If you run out of cash, you are going to get sweet FA, from the Thais anyway ..

[richm]

I think some of you might be taking this a little bit personally.They have supposedly done this to stop the fraudulent visa agents.The authorities apparently know who they are,but unfortunately cant seem to track down the same 800k transferred into multple accounts?Now this might be to your advantage,all you need is a thai bank account,a foreign bank account and a 100k.At the immigration office they will marvel at the beauty of your perfect bank book,65k in 65 k out ,65k in 65k, out and on and on and on.

[expatdude]

6 hours ago, Encora said:

 

Force be with you:
"From what I read you just need your Thai account showing money coming in from an international source. There was a discussion that this is a problem for those using Transferwise as they transfer money into your Thai account from another Thai bank, so nothing on the transfer to indicate it came from an international source."

I am not so sure, my understanding is that if you do the 65K/month way, you need to get that certified by your embassy as coming from outside. Whether the embassy will give you that confirmation if it was only money you sent from your o"seas account to Thailand monthly, rather then explicit pension, is unsure.

I wanted to go the 3 months 800K way next time, but maybe best belt and braces, starting sending 65K per month now, and topping it up to 800 K three months prior to visa application...

If only relying on 65K/month, it would be annoying to find at the end that your embassy won't give you confirmation that this is "income"
Mine won't, since I left my country of birth 45 years ago to emigrate to another country. It is the other country now where I hold my investments and pension, my birth country won't sign for that. the second country on;t sign anything because I am not a citizen, e.g. passportholder...

 

That is only one possible complication (having multiple accounts where money was transferred).

I imagine walking into a bank and saying "I need you to certify I've had 800,000 for the last 3 months, will have 800,000 three months from now, and after that I will have 400,000." That's gonna be fun.

Or I imagine walking in and saying "I transferred 40,000 baht a month every month and also have 400,000 in savings and I need you to certify that and that I will continue to have/do that."

It will be interesting to see how things will shake out and how the banks will deal with all this. Will they create accounts specifically for this situation? There's a lot of information that has yet to come out, and I am almost sure they haven't thought these things out to their logical conclusions yet.

2 hours ago, richm said:

I think some of you might be taking this a little bit personally.They have supposedly done this to stop the fraudulent visa agents.The authorities apparently know who they are,but unfortunately cant seem to track down the same 800k transferred into multple accounts?Now this might be to your advantage,all you need is a thai bank account,a foreign bank account and a 100k.At the immigration office they will marvel at the beauty of your perfect bank book,65k in 65 k out ,65k in 65k, out and on and on and on.

Is sending money out of the country so easy? If so, each time you transfer (each way!) you incur losses due to transfer fees and exchange rates. I haven't crunched the numbers but I'm guessing just putting the 800,000 in for the whole year would be cheaper if you have enough to do that.

Edited February 2, 2019 by expatdude