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Mongering Prices in Saigon, my experience.

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sabato
4 hours ago, larry.in.HCMC said:

VN is not a good tourism country, and the PNL area often referenced in this thread is ground zero for tourists and ripoffs.  Lots of beautiful girls in SG (and all over the nation for that matter), but accessing them for money as a tourist (or even as a resident) is usually not a good experience. 

Prostitution in VN generally is a harsh life for the participants.  It is mostly tied into organized crime which works hand in hand with a particular organization that siphons money off of the industry in exchange for allowing it to operate more or less openly (you can guess which organization that is).  So the girls are controlled by these criminals (often viciously), and most of these girls have lost their humanity early on in the process.  The prices mostly quoted here on this thread are the high end, get out of the tourist areas and paid sex  is about 400,000 to 500,000 VND.

Kynu.net for the domestic market has heaps of girls in this price range, but girls in the 1.5-2m range exist as well. I'm too lazy to do the leg work (and far too picky), so I can manage paying the admittedly large premium that district 1 attracts - it's so simple to just do a walk by of all the shops and find a cutie. No faffing around with lady drinks either. You don't even get to choose the girls at some of the places catering to locals, which doesn't work for me at all. I feel like I'd need to learn Vietnamese to really tap that market effectively.

The girls I have known for a while have gone on to get married, found a boyfriend, back to work in a regular shop, or freelance in other countries. They do not have handlers, and I doubt by pure luck I managed to find all the girls that don't have handlers, sidestepping the 'most' that do. I don't doubt some of the girls do, especially the ones managed by motorbike taxi's. For the domestic scene (which I don't have much experience with), I can imagine the situation might be different. However I recall am acquaintance I knew a long time ago saying the same thing about the Jakarta scene. In his words 'all' the girls were controlled. The more I experience I have with girls in Jakarta, the more ridiculous that claim becomes. They come and go as they please, they routinely reject foreigners they're not interested in.

I don't want to water down the seriousness of situations where girls are controlled in such situations, but it would help to list the warning signs rather than make vague claims. Vietnam has more 'I don't go' girls than any country I know, which in and of itself speaks volumes. The one case I heard of a girl effectively being trafficked into another country, recounted to me in a bar, it was her high school friend (female) who orchestrated it, not some random criminal element. She was shattered by that betrayal of trust more than anything.

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larry.in.HCMC

prostitution in VN generally is a harsh life for the participants.  It is mostly tied into organized crime which works hand in...

 

saying the same thing about the Jakarta scene. In his words 'all' the girls were controlled.

Read more closely. It is almost impossible to make any statement that is always true about the sex scene in Asia.

Social media is giving girls some freedom to sell themselves on the side, outside of the criminally controlled sex system.  But generally (there is that word again), the workers have to pay into the system, the same system which skims off of almost all forms of enterprise in VN.  If you spend enough time there, you see the harshness of it, and understand why so many of these girls lose their humanity.

Generally, if a girl can just get money from guys while entering and exiting relationships, she can steer clear of the control.  Generally, if she works on the street, in the bars, in hot tocs, massage parlors, or any ongoing business that allows sexual services to be part of the offerings, she is paying into the "system".  This does not mean she is gang raped as part of the training or grabbed by the throat and slapped and beaten when she gets out of line, but it is damn sure possible, and she knows it.  This is VN we are discussing, I cannot speak with authority on any other nation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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sabato
1 hour ago, larry.in.HCMC said:

saying the same thing about the Jakarta scene. In his words 'all' the girls were controlled.

Read more closely. It is almost impossible to make any statement that is always true about the sex scene in Asia.

Social media is giving girls some freedom to sell themselves on the side, outside of the criminally controlled sex system.  But generally (there is that word again), the workers have to pay into the system, the same system which skims off of almost all forms of enterprise in VN.  If you spend enough time there, you see the harshness of it, and understand why so many of these girls lose their humanity.

Generally, if a girl can just get money from guys while entering and exiting relationships, she can steer clear of the control.  Generally, if she works on the street, in the bars, in hot tocs, massage parlors, or any ongoing business that allows sexual services to be part of the offerings, she is paying into the "system".  This does not mean she is gang raped as part of the training or grabbed by the throat and slapped and beaten when she gets out of line, but it is damn sure possible, and she knows it.  This is VN we are discussing, I cannot speak with authority on any other nation.

I saw the word 'most' a few times, and in the domain of western facing mongering (the demographic of this board), I'm just not seeing it. Similarly I can't say most enjoy freedom to do as they please, because I don't have a sufficiently representative dataset. I do have enough data points to raise a lot of questions on the assertion that most are strictly controlled.

The girls working at bars refuse customers routinely. That's the big one, how is that strict control by pimps? Other signs girls aren't risking copping a beating for getting out of line

- Changed massage parlors (I get this *a lot*). Freedom of movement, as they didn't like the old boss.

- Stopped work once a boyfriend is found. A friend of hers also found a boyfriend, yet would sometimes visit her old bar still, just to catch up with a friend.

- Girl is happily married abroad, yet when she's back in Vietnam and the husband isn't in town, goes on a bar crawl through all the girlie bars. This is the literal opposite behavior you would expect from a girl who was abused by the system.

- A regular who works abroad, visits her old bar back in HCM to talk with friends. Nobody would do that if it was a shitty dangerous environment that could suck her right back in. Her sister tried her hand at it for a bit, didn't like it, stopped. There was no problem. I can't imagine this regular would have let her sister get involved in the first place, if she thought it a risk to her.

- It's a small thing, but girls in the online listings almost always have their faces blurred out. Why would a pimp with complete control give a shit about his girls anonymity, if it hurt the bottom line?

- massage girls around Bui Vien are so pushy for tips, they would sooner get nothing (because they won't budge on price down from some ridiculous amount, like 3m+), rather than lowering the price. That is not the behavior of a girl beholden to a pimp.

- [EDIT] I've had multiple girls talk about motorbikes following them after work, as in thieves figuring they have big money. This is something of a problem for girls finishing late, if they're riding home alone. It's even a problem for customers sometimes, years ago someone staying at my hotel was followed back from a bar, and robbed right outside the hotel. Unbelievably bold. If a girl is under control of a pimp, you can reasonably expect she has access to protection. I mean that's what pimps ostensibly are for. These girls had to be careful going home from the bars as they had no such protection.

Now do girls pay off the hotel staff when visiting hotels to smooth things over? Yes, we're talking $3-$5. This ties in with police raids, which is a hazard for girl and monger alike. She wants advance warning if shit is about to go down. Girls have avoided coming to my room during crackdown periods, due to heightened risk. I also expect girls pay additional money to the shop, more than would happen in Thailand, for the 'privilege' of working there. I don't see signs of their freedoms being limited, if they don't like it they're free to leave. Thai sex places will pay tea money, that money ultimately comes from the girls who are generating the revenue (where else could it come from?). What I see here is no different.

That money is paid into the system, is not in dispute, it's the vicious control element I'm calling into question. Sure it has to exist at some level, it just doesn't seem pervasive. I've had girls talk about dubious treatment overseas, so they do talk about these things, yet none have talked about abuse  received domestically. Vietnamese girls can be some of the most mercenary, whichever country you find them in. I'm not sure if that's what you mean by losing their humanity, but they are far more business minded (less carefree) than other countries.

Are you able to relay some first or second hand accounts of girls getting in to bother? I guess that would clarify where you're coming from, as maybe your definition of girls being controlled is different from my own.

Edited by sabato

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buck011
On 02/03/2019 at 13:04, bfinkay said:

Buck when you say offers who is it from?

Some local guys.Today one aproached me in Bui vien told me its cheap showed some girls i said ok we went in a nearby street in whats apparently some low budget hotel and after couple of minutes 4 girls arrived.Honestly the were not bad.Actually 1 was quite attractive 1 was  ok, the other 2 so-so.

Now i was told the price was $50 or 1.2 mil.I refused saying i've been offered for 1m everywhere so this is not cheap as i was told.They offered to lower the price to 1m but i thought that still to much (ok i know some will dissagree and i admit for  about 1400b you will have a hard time to find similar quality in Pattaya).

Besides there was one more thing that was putting me off: the whole payment is to be made in advance to them,not to the girl.I chose not to take a girl.

After that i was a bit walking in the small streets near bui vien when a not particulary attractive girl asked me if i want massage: i didnt ; then she said she can make everything and accepted my 600k offer (800b) for FS.She was quite enthusiastic and i left satisfied.

 

Edited by buck011

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dnaliaht

My impression of Saigon is that a westerner staying there for a couple months at least could clean up on tinder or the dating apps with some very hot women. Otherwise I agree with what's been posted already, it's difficult for a first time visitor to really immerse themselves in P4P without putting in a ton of leg work and have a plan of approach, unlike what's needed in Pattaya. I agree with one poster that mentioned not seeing many hot girls walking around and I noticed the same in the tourist areas. It has to be discouraging for first timers showing up and not knowing what or where a hot toc is or only relying on Bui Vien message places. 

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buck011

One more thing if you like girls with darker skin ( like i do) then you may wanna give Vietnam a pass.

Thats at least my impression after 5 days in Saigon.

Edited by buck011

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larry.in.HCMC

You have to really live there and get to know the dirty part of the system to see this stuff, which most tourists prefer to avoid, obviously.  I have lived in both HCMC and Ha Noi, and have friends in both locations that are involved in the dirt.  The system in Ha Noi is even more interesting, nasty, and hidden.

Here is one of my most memorable examples of the reality of the sex industry in VN:

I had been shown a particular street  (Tú Xương) by my HCMC friend.  This was a street where girls were allowed to sell their services.  A year or so later, the “powers that be” decided to not allow it on that street any longer, though other streets were fine.  They change where they allow it for reasons of their own.  Girls follow the RULES, but a few may try to work outside the system. 

I will never forget the evening, I was with my buddy and we were both on our motorbikes, and cruising that street.   In the past, girls would cruise the street and pull over to proposition you, as they are allowed to do, as long as they pay their cut.  But as this street was no longer cleared for these activities, there was just the occasional girl trying to squeeze the last juice from the fruit, probably hoping to bypass the payment system as well.  We were parked on the sidewalk, well clear of any traffic, waiting and watching.  A girl pulls up next to us to try to sell herself.  We had not been there 20 seconds before a motorbike came off the street and smashed directly into the side of her motorbike.  The driver did not care one bit how badly he injured the girl, his purpose was in fact to do major damage.  He aimed directly for her leg, on the side of her motorbike. She was slammed to the ground with no helmet on.   For all I know, she might have been killed, though likely she was just badly injured.  Within about 10 seconds of this, two police bikes pulled up next to us, they gave us the sign to  get the hell out of there, which we did.  I thought it was an interesting Touch how the handlers slammed the girl and how the police came up behind them just to make it clear what the deal really was all about.  Usually, they avoid making it quite so obvious.

Great example of how this all works, the girls pay the handlers, the handlers pay the “authorities”, the authorities spread it around in their system, and everyone who is involved knows the real score.  Now, does a particular girl have to accept every and any man who offers to pay her for sex?  Of course not, she does have that freedom, she just has to respect the RULES.  Does every girl have to be threatened with death?  Of course not, they know the score.  Are there ways to glean money from foreigners (or natives) without paying into the system?  Of course, the more it can appear to be a real relationship, the more likely the girl can avoid the system.  But girls and business who do this stuff on a professional basis (inside the real sex industry) in VN do make their payoffs, and if they do not, the system will force them to one way or the other.  And certainly a girl can work in some of these places without making any direct payments to low life handlers on the streets, rather the pay is just withheld from their earning, like Social Security, for example.  So it does not always have to seem harsh to the girls, depending on the venues they sell themselves in.  Just accept what it is, follow the RULES, and you are fine.  Generally speaking, nicer, younger girls may start off in less difficult environments, and as time goes on, they have to accept the lesser "ambiance" of the venues they eventually move down to.  My friend in Ha Noi tells me fascinating stories of how fresh girls start off being given higher payments in "special circumstances" where they may not have a clue about the high position of the guys who are using them, but work their way down the chain (as their value diminishes) and eventually end up on the streets. 

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sabato
4 hours ago, larry.in.HCMC said:

Great example of how this all works, the girls pay the handlers, the handlers pay the “authorities”, the authorities spread it around in their system, and everyone who is involved knows the real score.  Now, does a particular girl have to accept every and any man who offers to pay her for sex?  Of course not, she does have that freedom, she just has to respect the rules.  Does every girl have to be threatened with death?  Of course not, they know the score.  Are there ways to glean money from foreigners (or natives) without paying into the system?  Of course, the more it can appear to be a real relationship, the more likely the girl can avoid the system.  But girls and business who do this stuff on a professional basis (inside the real sex industry) in VN do make their payoffs, and if they do not, the system will force them to one way or the other.  

Thanks for the clarification. I like to keep my eye out for situations involving girls operating against their wishes, and that's been a concern for me in places like Indonesia where I've heard bad things about (for example) the now shut down Dolly. I do view tea money payments as something rather separate. If I choose to buy hard drugs in Vietnam, I am exposing myself to great risk, and violence. I can (probably) pay into the system to get around it, but I shouldn't expect this, and better to avoid it altogether. If I take girls back to my room when the hotel staff warned me against it, I'm seriously exposing myself to problems. It's discomforting to hear about street justice like you described, but if she was expressly told not to do it (when it was already illegal), it's madness to ignore that warning.

I don't know if it's true, but I've heard police warning pickpockets in the past, I'm talking over a decade a go (when it was getting out of hand) to reign it in. They persisted, and a bunch got the death penalty for their efforts. When something is illegal, you've got to be doubly careful, but if you get additional pointed warnings, cease and desist.

Do you know what happens in New Zealand, where prostitution is legal, if you don't make the 'payments into the system' (as in your tax)? You go to jail. I don't think that makes the system punitive or harsh. That's no justification for extra judicial punishments, but I think there's a world of difference between paying money to corrupt officials so they turn a blind eye, versus being controlled.

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buck011

Happy to be back im Bkk after 6 days in Saigon.Vietnam kind of  dissapointed me,and im not talking about P4P since i didnt have particulary high expectations anyway,but the horrible traffic,light skin girls(which some of you may like) and the general vibe.

 

 

Edited by buck011

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Guyhavok
On 02/03/2019 at 23:01, larry.in.HCMC said:

VN is not a good tourism country, and the PNL area often referenced in this thread is ground zero for tourists and ripoffs.  Lots of beautiful girls in SG (and all over the nation for that matter), but accessing them for money as a tourist (or even as a resident) is usually not a good experience. 

Prostitution in VN generally is a harsh life for the participants.  It is mostly tied into organized crime which works hand in hand with a particular organization that siphons money off of the industry in exchange for allowing it to operate more or less openly (you can guess which organization that is).  So the girls are controlled by these criminals (often viciously), and most of these girls have lost their humanity early on in the process.  The prices mostly quoted here on this thread are the high end, get out of the tourist areas and paid sex  is about 400,000 to 500,000 VND.  Apocalypse Now would not be on my list of places to go, and I would try like hell to stay out of District 1, unless seeking a relationship, even then that area is not your best bet.  Poverty areas tend to be much more productive in terms of quality and value.  HCMC is huge, the edges work out much better.  Girls in the center who are professionally tied into prostitution for the more affluent (and especially for the tourists) are the ones to avoid.

Much better country for living in long term and having a relationship with someone who is not part of the sex industry.

 

Your post is a bit of an over exaggeration. First thing first, I'd love to know some cheap spots outside District 1. As you said, D1 is the tourist area so it's not surprising that prices are in the high end. I barely ventured outside of D1 and never for mongering purposes. If you have any good spots to recommend I'd love to hear them and any advice. I never ventured out to the edges as you've said but I have drove through them.

As far the criminal part of your post, I feel that that is an exaggeration. I have no doubt that there are girl who find themselves on the dark side of things. I do believe however that it isn't the standard. From what I learned and could tell, these girls took these job of their own free will. In fact, that's what this is, a job for them. The girls often have circumstances which may "force" them to make this decision. Two girls I knew where paying off their parents' debt, even after paying it off they stayed. One seems to have found her a guy though, so she's out of the game. The other one actually got fired and is at a crossroads. Not sure what she wants to do next. The way these girls work is that they get paid in tips and not by the shop. Several nearby shop could be own by one entity. I know of one that is owned by a woman who is retired. I believe she owns several other ones in the area. It's not uncommon to walk into one shop and be lead to another one or have a girl from a neighboring one join you. The money that goes to the shop is the fees you pay for the service and room. A percentage of that is used to pay off cops. So yeah, its not as vicious as you make it seem and I doubt its common.

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larry.in.HCMC

It is not always vicious, it depends on the particulars of the situations for the girls.  Girls who work in the hot tocs are more or less contractors, and may never have to be threatened or abused by the authorities.  In those kinds of cases, the management/ownership is interfacing with the gov and making the payments.

About what is common, it depends on where you go, what kind of P4P you are trying to involve yourself in.   I especially disliked the PNL scene, it seemed another world to me with all the drunk expats and high prices. But the lower end is where it commonly gets nasty.  So tourists who are paying up for sex do not often see girls getting jerked around by their hair, beaten, screamed at, and that is fine.  The larger part of the sex industry in VN (and all of SE Asia) serves the native populations, and those situations are not so much our concern, unless we choose to dabble in them.  As I had native friends in VN that would take me around to those places (I rarely hung out with expats), I would more commonly see this low end stuff.  When I was threatened with a brick to the head over not playing by their RULES, I started to realize my  interest in the field was just not really worth the possible results.   I was refusing to pay a girl for driving another girl to the agreed upon hotel.  I had tried to drive her myself, but the pimp girl wanted to drive her so she could then demand an upfront driver's fee after driving a few blocks to the hotel.  So funny being chased on a motorbike by a girl with a brick.  

The good thing about VN, if you look around enough, take some time, do a good job of shopping, you can find most anything.  That is why I tended to end up with relationships instead of prostitutes, those worked out better as I was living there.  But I did always find it interesting to see what was happening where the natives go. 

 

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bandit42

This is a great thread of interest to me as I was / or maybe planning a trip to Saigon or Phnom Phen, I love AC way more that Patts, think because I'm older now and my strike rate is a lot better in AC, more LT success, easier language communication, lower cost, etc

I really like going into, lets say gogo bars where the girls are dancing on stage, I take my time have a drink and call a girl down, but if i'm not wrong this does not happen over here, everything I've been seening like on you tube is girls standing around, so you go into a bar and nothing is happening here, I see empty stages, am I wrong, am I missing something, why the fuck don't they dance?

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Guyhavok
On 14/04/2019 at 05:43, bandit42 said:

This is a great thread of interest to me as I was / or maybe planning a trip to Saigon or Phnom Phen, I love AC way more that Patts, think because I'm older now and my strike rate is a lot better in AC, more LT success, easier language communication, lower cost, etc

I really like going into, lets say gogo bars where the girls are dancing on stage, I take my time have a drink and call a girl down, but if i'm not wrong this does not happen over here, everything I've been seening like on you tube is girls standing around, so you go into a bar and nothing is happening here, I see empty stages, am I wrong, am I missing something, why the fuck don't they dance?

There isn’t really a gogo bar scene in Vietnam. There are bars where a girl will sit with you and plenty of clubs.

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ctp2018
On 03/04/2019 at 22:24, larry.in.HCMC said:

  The good thing about VN, if you look around enough, take some time, do a good job of shopping, you can find most anything. 

Where, in general, would you suggest looking for these types of ladies? I tend to agree with you about being happier with the end result. It would be nice if there was some sort of middleground for some of these types if you get my drift. By middle ground I mean not hard-core and also not strictly looking for boyfriend.

Edited by ctp2018

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ctp2018
On 09/02/2018 at 04:56, Ping223 said:

We found some hot sluts on wheels instead - well, they found us.  :P   Was a lot cheaper option.

 Where are you the target of any scams for this, or did it all work out as you expected?  :)

 I am a little bit leery of the motorbikes in general!

Edited by ctp2018

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Tarl

Interesting thread and great info.

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seasia77

In Hanoi, I ended up paying 300,000 for FS.   I was in a massage place and I thought I was negotiating for a HJ.  She quoted some price, and then I objected saying that the previous women only asked for 300000.   So she agreed, and before I knew it, she was naked and starting everything.  I did give her a tip, however.     I think it was where the locals go, ....

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Toad TheLittle

Going to be in Saigon for a few days next week. I'm looking for some bars where girls will take you to a corner or upstars for a BJ. I just like the idea of a BJ in a bar (spoiled by Pattaya!). I've heard of Smileys, 29 Bar, any others to suggest?

Thanks.

Once I am back I'll write out a proper report. It's going to be my first time in SGN.

 

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LuvThaiPussy
On 21/06/2019 at 07:37, Toad TheLittle said:

Going to be in Saigon for a few days next week. I'm looking for some bars where girls will take you to a corner or upstars for a BJ. I just like the idea of a BJ in a bar (spoiled by Pattaya!). I've heard of Smileys, 29 Bar, any others to suggest?

Thanks.

Once I am back I'll write out a proper report. It's going to be my first time in SGN.

 

Do you have a link to your report? I'm thinking of going for my first time for my visa run next week.

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defender1207

Cheers!

For Saigon, you can use https://www.gai.to (ex Kynu.net). Personally I prefer bars and massage, so I never tried it.

As well outside tourist aria there is a street with Hot Toc (local types of BJ bars) Nguyễn Phi Khanh. Last time I was there in May 2018 the price was 400k VND. Paid upfront. (No tips or extra charges this price is final.)
I marked this street with red color on the screenshot.

street.jpg

Edited by defender1207

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bangna

October 2019 was still 400,000 vnd and I paid the cashier after the deed.

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kenshinsh
On 02/03/2019 at 05:30, webfoot said:

I’m in Ho Chi Minh right now for the first time.  Been here 5 days and would have left after day two if I could have changed my return ticket to the Philippines.  The problem for me is the terrible motorcycle traffic.  I’m within walking distance  of Bui Vien but it’s a major hassle getting there crossing streets with virtual nonstop traffic and drivers going the wrong way and having to dodge them on the sidewalks.  Even once on Bui Vien the street is not closed to traffic.  With tables and chairs out to the curb.  Imagine walking down second road in Pattaya being about ten times more crowded.  The hot tocs are all spread out and not really reachable without having to risk getting ripped off by taxi drivers.  On a brighter note though they do have good food, craft beer bars and the people seem friendly.  I really haven’t seen any really hot women here either.  Most seem a little pudgy.  I guess i’ve Been spoiled by the Philippines, Thailand and Germany.  I know there are some guys that love this place and I think that there is similarity with Thailand twenty years ago but for me I probably won’t return.

use grab for taxi or motorbike, most trip cost a dollars or 2, very convenient too. As for hot women, maybe you didnt visit the right places, but pass by the little tokyo area, tons of very hot girls at the massage places, ktvs and bars.

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LuvThaiPussy
On 15/01/2020 at 01:57, bangna said:

October 2019 was still 400,000 vnd and I paid the cashier after the deed.

Which place?

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bangna
6 hours ago, LuvThaiPussy said:

Which place?

Sorry LTP,    Nguyễn Phi Khanh St must have at least a dozen hot tocs and I looked in 3 before making a choice. I think it may have been Hoang Thanh at 140 NPK.

Edit: the other 2 shops both confirmed 400,000 vnd.

Edited by bangna

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