Grande Caribbean Resort - A Success Story

[RabbitRun]

This topic is meant to be different in that it shows it is possible to buy off-plan or in the early build stage in Pattaya and end up with a product that meets or exceeds the claims of the advertisements, cgi, and showroom models. Like most things in life, it is unrealistic to expect perfection (where humans and nature are both factors), so it is wise to put all the pros and cons in perspective and come to a value judgement as to whether "it's been worth it".

 

1) GCR's Facebook page has been recreated (I think) and is now current. Do go check it out as there are pics of the facilities and posts galore.

 

2) Chanote and key transfers began around the first of October and include all five buildings. FB has pics of smiling owners being handed their titles and keys.

 

3) The First General Meeting was held in the GCR fitness center on October 16, 2016.

 

4) EIA approval and construction started in June 2013, with an announced schedule completion 2nd qtr 2015. This schedule goal was missed by 16 months. This is the one area where the developer did not perform as promised. On a personal note, it's the one area I'm most forgiving, as I've heard the project manager apologize for the delays, but stated that quality and workmanship would not be compromised by 'cutting corners' to speed up the timetable. I applaud that commitment to quality. The end product is well worth waiting for IMHO.

[RabbitRun]

[chris2004]

Looks a nice development except that most of the swimming pool will be perpetually in the shade.

[RabbitRun]

From my observations, the east facing side of the Tower building is in shade beginning around 12:30. The upper level pools towards the East end and a good part of the main pool will have sunlight for some time after that. It's a good observation on your part. The next time I visit I'll take note of the time and check how much shade there is.

 

Edit: There's also been nice breezes funneling thru from the east gap between buildings B and C. Less need to run the air con.

[RabbitRun]

Chris2004, I just realized that the 2nd pic I posted shows that there will be sunlight all day in a portion of the main pool, most of the Lighthouse and it's sunning decks, and the lower and upper pools east of the Lighthouse. It's clear that sunlight is streaming in thru the gap between the south end of the Tower and building A. The pic looks to be taken around 3 pm guesstimating from the Toer shadow. I never noticed this until now.

 

I found a few "ground-level" pics posted on the GCR FB page, all taken by one owner at roughly the same time. The sun has already gone past the Tower. The pics that follow show the the southern side of the main pool and the southern lower and upper pools will have sunlight all day (at least this time of year). I'm not sure how much variance in latitude the sun has in Pattaya thru the seasons.

 

Pic 1) Shade line of the Tower with sunlight streaming thru the gap between south end of Tower and building A (in background)

 

Pic 2) Panning left, same sunlight thru the gap, south ship, that part of main pool, and upper pool in light.

 

Pic 3) East end of GCR, the lower pool shown (the upper pool not visible from this elevation) and Lighthouse in sunlight from the gap.

 

Pic 4) The gap where the sunlight is coming from.

[supergeil]

Getting the keys and having the facade resemble the brochure should be the bare minimum. Likewise, holding the first general meeting is required by law (I forget the exact details, but something like n months after the first title deed has been issues).

 

Some thoughts of what would be more interesting to know:

 

Were interests paid for the delay?

 

Have you looked closer at how the electrical wiring was done? The plumbing? How well is the insulation? How did the developer handle quality assurance?

 

When you got the keys, did you go over the condo with the developer to look for defects, and if so, how many defects were found? What types of defects were found? And has reported defects been promptly fixed and/or have you received a schedule for when it will happen?

[supergeil]

I had a company based in Bangkok install kitchens, closets, and bathroom cabinets.

 

While definitely less demanding than a full condo and fewer caveats, it is a 200 sq. m. condo and it was an absolute pleasure to see the crew work.

 

They showed up all wearing nice uniforms, they covered everything around the work area, including wrapping electrical panels in plastic etc. This is definitely not standard for Thai work crews, and this is probably the number one issue I have found with workers (not just in Thailand): They’ll spill paint, scratch surfaces, stain floors, or worse.

 

At the end of each workday, the foreman would photograph everything and send that back to the office for the manager to check, and she would send me a report about progress, issues, etc., for example one closet door would open into a bedside table, so she asked if they should fix the door to only open 35 degrees or so.

 

They finished a day early, and the foreman cleaned/polished everything and then walked me through it all, to ensure I was satisfied with their work.

 

To me, this was a success story because they went far beyond my expectations!

[RabbitRun]

Supergeil, you raised a lot of issues and I'll try to answer as best I can. Others please chime in to correct or amplify.

 

"Getting the keys and having the facade resemble the brochure should be the bare minimum."

 

What "should be" and what the reality is are worlds apart. It's up to the buyer to do the 'absolutely necessary ' due diligence in verifying the developers track record of building to their advertisements. People complaining should look. In the mirror to find the person responsible. Also, "getting the keys" is not the issue, getting clear title (chanote) is.

 

"Likewise, holding the first general meeting is required by law (I forget the exact details, but something like n months after the first title deed has been issues)."

 

Section 14 The General Meeting of the Joint Owner shall be held, at the first time, within 6 months after the completion of the Condominium Juristic Person registration. Chapter Five, Part 1 https://www.samuiforsale.com/other-miscellaneous/sample-condo-bylaws.html

 

"Were interests paid for the delay?"

 

Ahhh, here we go, the classic trap that the less than scrupulous developers love to use on the gullible! My contract with Blue Sky Development (GCR is one of their many projects) stipulates that schedule delay longer than a specified period gives the buyer the right to claim breach of contract and demand a full return of all monies paid plus a specified interest. NOWHERE is any other penalty of any kind specified! If a buyer foolishly requests some kind of payment, they forfeit all of their contractual rights.

 

As an example, some guy wants to sell his condo "at cost" over on the ARt on the Hill topic. He doesn't say if he has a chanote (I'm guessing not). Why didn't the idiot use his contractual right as I explained above. He'd have his money plus interest and no transfer fees!

 

More in next post

[RabbitRun]

Supergeil reply continued:

 

"Have you looked closer at how the electrical wiring was done? The plumbing? How well is the insulation? How did the developer handle quality assurance?"

 

Yes, I have had the opportunity on several occasions to walk thru my unit and some of the hallways , common areas, etc. I saw how the plumbing and electrical were being installed. I'm neither a plumber nor an electrician, but I saw no signs of anything problematic. The developer also had a full time project manager and his staff onsite throughout the construction phase. Management was very hands on overseeing daily construction activities.

 

As a note of interest, the 2014 Skill Development Promotion Act became. Law on December 26, 2014 and enforcement began just a few days ago, Sunday 26, 2016. According to the Act, the profession of building electrician can jeopardize the public if not performed by qualified individuals. Therefore, electricians must be certified by the DSD (Department of Skill Development) prior to employment. Failure to obtain certification before working as an electrician can result in legal penalties under the Act.

More than a thousand electricians have already been certified by the DSD. They were required to take several tests as part of the process. It is believed that there will be 40,000 qualified building electricians by the end of September, 2016.

[RabbitRun]

Supergeil reply continued

 

"When you got the keys, did you go over the condo with the developer to look for defects, and if so, how many defects were found? What types of defects were found? And has reported defects been promptly fixed and/or have you received a schedule for when it will happen?"

 

To clarify, the process of chanote issuance and key handover is underway, starting the first week of October this year. I personally have not gone thru it yet, but when I do I'll post the experience here. Based on the track record of the process at Atlantis (another successful Blue Sky project) it took around 2-3 months to transfer titles on the over 1,000 units. Think about it, that's over 10 units per day.

 

But yes, I will inspect it along with a GCR representative, any issues will be addressed, then a re-inspection, then an appointment will be made at the Land Department to do the transfer. Everything aboveboard and transparent.

[supergeil]

"Were interests paid for the delay?"

 

Ahhh, here we go, the classic trap that the less than scrupulous developers love to use on the gullible! My contract with Blue Sky Development (GCR is one of their many projects) stipulates that schedule delay longer than a specified period gives the buyer the right to claim breach of contract and demand a full return of all monies paid plus a specified interest. NOWHERE is any other penalty of any kind specified! If a buyer foolishly requests some kind of payment, they forfeit all of their contractual rights.

 

There is a standard contract provided by the Thai government for buying off-plan, and developers must at a minimum provide the buyer with the rights that this contract provides.

 

This states that the buyer is allowed to cancel the purchase and get back their money with interests, which is what you have in your contract.

 

But it also states that should the buyer not cancel the purchase, they are still entitled to interests, it is 1% per day of delay (of the purchase sum) though no more than (I think) 10%.

 

So if this was not in your contract, then GCR was denying you rights that has been granted by the Thai government, and this is no trap, as you seem to believe.

 

I myself have bought off-plan where the build was delayed by about seven months, and I got interests for those seven months. Although I was under the impression that it was the full purchase price, but my developer’s interpretation was that it was only of the money paid so far. I found it fair that they should not pay me interest on money that was still in my possession, so I accepted interests on only what I had paid, even though the English wording of this clause makes it sound very much like it’s of the full purchase price.

 

And believe me, if my developer could have avoided this clause, they certainly would, but it’s dictated from above, that buyers of off-plan condos should get this compensation for delays.

[supergeil]

Not to rain on your parade, but putting “A Success Story” in the thread title seems a little premature when you haven’t gotten your condo yet (and it’s delayed without them giving you the compensation that I am quite sure that you are entitled to).

 

I know the standard is low in Pattaya, and compared to Matrix, that title deeds are being transferred automatically seems like a success, but we really shouldn’t let Matrix set the standard. These people are incompetent beyond belief, as delaying title deed transfer is definitely not in their interest, because technically they’ll have to pay water, electricity, and common area maintenance fees from the completion date until the title deed has been transferred, hopefully buyers will also not pay the remaining amount until they have their deed, and finally, at least in my case, I made sure that all warranties provided by the developer (on appliances, structure, etc.) was from the date I got the title deed. So why Matrix are so slow to get the units transferred to their owners is unbelievable.

 

Now for GCR, I understand you’re eager to share your positive experience with the Matrix thread going on (and everybody thinking that buying off-plan in Thailand is only going to end in a disaster), but I have experience with a few buildings, and while obvious issues can often be seen quickly (especially if you visit the building site during the build, and have a bit of experience with larger builds), you need to wait 6-12 months for many of the hidden issues to surface, and that’s when you learn whether or not it is a “success story”

[RabbitRun]

Supergeil: "But it also states that should the buyer not cancel the purchase, they are still entitled to interests, it is 1% per day of delay (of the purchase sum) though no more than (I think) 10%."

 

I beg to differ. Here's a link to a standard condo purchase agreement site. Show me where it states what you just did. https://www.samuiforsale.com/other-miscellaneous/standard-thai-condo-purchase-agreements.html

 

Or post any link that verifies your understanding

 

If you got a clause like that in your contract, bravo for you. But it's not legislated by law

[RabbitRun]

Supergeil , please post your paragraph regarding Matrix over on the Art on the Hill topic. I think you'll get some interesting responses from p.a. Readers who live there.

[RabbitRun]

Supergeil, I appreciate your take on my choice of topic title. I did choose it in the belief that there is very little being said about the decent, professional developers who 'are' out there. Titles are being transferred now, owners have already begun moving in, some units are now being advertised for rent by owner. I decided to start this topic because I didn't want to clutter up the AOTH topic (where I have posted about GCR in the past). My intent is to post thru my personal title/key process, move in, any problems encountered into next year. So if any of the potential items you listed occur, I'll post them here.

 

From the standpoint of the whole process over the last few years, I stand by my view that it's a success. I can always change the title if future events suggest it.

[supergeil]

Or post any link that verifies your understanding

 

Here’s a link about the O.C. 22 standard sales contract: http://www.siam-legal.com/thailand-law/buying-off-plan-the-sales-and-purchase-agreement/

 

It says: “If the Purchaser chooses not to terminate the contract, the Purchaser is allowed to subject the Seller to a daily fine of at least 0.01% of the purchase price. However, the total fine cannot exceed 10% of the purchase price.”.

 

I incorrectly wrote 1% above.

[supergeil]

Maybe relevant for you: “Finally, Section 6/2 provides that any contract which fails to meet the minimum provided by O.C. 22 is not valid. Section 63 subjects any Seller who violates Section 6/2 to a fine of 100,000 baht”

[supergeil]

Supergeil , please post your paragraph regarding Matrix over on the Art on the Hill topic. I think you'll get some interesting responses from p.a. Readers who live there.

 

I doubt anyone would claim anything other than Matrix being an incompetent developer that bullshits their customers, no need to rub it in for the people who fell for the glossy sales material.

[JAI DEE MAK]

I jumped from the 3rd post to the l last not a lot more to say  give it up !!!!

 

JDM

[JAI DEE MAK]

I had a company based in Bangkok install kitchens, closets, and bathroom cabinets.

 

While definitely less demanding than a full condo and fewer caveats, it is a 200 sq. m. condo and it was an absolute pleasure to see the crew work.

 

They showed up all wearing nice uniforms, they covered everything around the work area, including wrapping electrical panels in plastic etc. This is definitely not standard for Thai work crews, and this is probably the number one issue I have found with workers (not just in Thailand): They’ll spill paint, scratch surfaces, stain floors, or worse.

 

At the end of each workday, the foreman would photograph everything and send that back to the office for the manager to check, and she would send me a report about progress, issues, etc., for example one closet door would open into a bedside table, so she asked if they should fix the door to only open 35 degrees or so.

 

They finished a day early, and the foreman cleaned/polished everything and then walked me through it all, to ensure I was satisfied with their work.

 

To me, this was a success story because they went far beyond my expectations!

 

 

Nice......... please give them a big bone and don't forget to take a photo showing the nice uniforms and the lack of  paint 5555555.

 

 

 

This lack of skill by the big companies  is a joke and why anyone would accept it is incredible 5555555

 

JDM

[southsidebruce]

another aspect of this success story will be in a year, maybe 2 years from now... how will the condo maintenance and the build quality hold up to normal wear and tear... I lived in a very nice condo in Pratunmak, The Cliff, for 2 years.... had one of the nicest pools in Pattaya condos... and it was very much showing its age after 2 years... the pool area once looked real real nice, upscale, etc, as did the fitness center... by the end of 2 years, the pool area was looking old - the fake wood looking deck was getting bleached by the sun as were the fake rocks in the pool area... the fitness center featured equipment that wasn't being maintained - one of the 3 treadmills didn't work, a universal gym type of equipment had cables that were frayed/ready to snap, the cushions on some of the equipment was broken/needing replacement... so build quality and maintenance is an area that will only be known once the condo has occupants and is up and running for a year or two... that will effect the resale value of units in it... I am thinking that probably the majority of the newly constructed condos in Pattaya will go the way of The Cliff... poor build quality and poor maintenance... hopefully not for those that are owners... I was renting and I moved on from The Cliff into a house in East Pattaya... miss my sea views, but don't miss the noisy, dirt/dust from the construction of a condo right behind the The Cliff... and I MOST CERTAINLY DON'T MISS the reams of Chinese tour buses at the corner of Pratunmak Hill near the entrance to the scenic overlook - a cluster fuck of a grand scale, with police who man the small police hut across from the entrance to the scenic overlook just looking on, not doing anything to help direct the traffic jams caused by the reams and reams of tour buses... Seemed to me to add a HUGE dash of danger (and excitement?) to those going up and down Pratunmak Hill... but maybe that has changed now that (I heard) there are less Chinese tour groups coming to Pattaya than before (?)...

[david555]

When open the water valve in my shower, i am even surprised no adverts coming out for condo sales for the total disaster constructions ,  Amazons ,park lane Laguna & all the " sister projects" by our Pattay agents....overwhelming continuous marketing....for their 10%commission promised ...if successful to " dump" another one...  
 

[RabbitRun]

I've been a bit delinquent in posting, been focused on the USA elections and stock market actions.

 

One last comment on the schedule provisions issue; I did search further and found only one further site that offered yet a third version. I think this will remain contentious until an authoritative actual translation of the "model contract" can be found by someone. Until then, I'd just say that I would want to protect my contractual right to get a full refund, invoking the schedule delay clause. End of comment.

[RabbitRun]

Southsidebruce , I agree with everything in your last post. Maintenance is key, and the responsibility of the owners association to work closely with the manager selected. I'm going to be putting my two cents in to have a maintenance contract with the Thai branch of Otis elevators, for example (the company is installing their elevators by their employees, based on the uniforms of the guys I've seen working). Faulty elevators is a common complaint I've heard. Likewise, a professional staff for gardening (very extensive at GCR) , painting, etc. Beyond the developers responsibility during the warranty period, it's up to the owners to keep the facilities in top shape.

 

It really helps to start with high quality materials and workmanship.

 

Thanks for your post

[RabbitRun]

A pic taken by an owner (I presume) shortly after sunset: