Hot Resale At The Golden Tulip - Foreign Quota

[brutox]

On 6/24/2017 at 9:18 AM, rhodie said:

Good luck to all you guys. Maybe you should group together and employ @brutox as an adviser. Thing is dodgy developers do this all over the world, even in a highly regulated place like Australia. Risky buying off plan. Following with great interest.

Kind of you to think so, rhodie .. but, no .. I am no help.

Once anything is pulled into the Thai Vortex's massive gravity, it is done .. like a black hole, the more they devour the greater their intractable force .. I jokingly write that nothing survives their phenomenal crushing forces .. they pulverize molecular matter to smithereens .. subatomic detritus .. pre-sale condominiums, ATM accounts, farang hearts, farang 'nads! .. (eeeeyeow!).

We were highly selective in the distressed assets and NPL's that we acquired during the 1997 Asian Currency Crisis and I was loaded with international-grade local legal counsel, on whom I spent a ton of money (worth every baht) .. we made measured, high-risk investments on which I mapped clear pathways (difficult and butt-puckering scary) to ownership, necessary to protect the principal and achieve our very high return expectations.

Until the ownership is cleared, assets as these are simply black holes no one in their right minds will touch .. even if the ownership could be cleared, we are not the guys the unfortunate unsecured creditors would want to see .. recapitalizing projects as these and completing them almost always requires the secured creditors (banks, contractors, etc.) to accept a haircut on what they are owed, and wipes out the unsecured creditors (the condo buyers).

[  Maybe the OP, who offered one of these for sale back on page 1 can update us on any offers.  ]

Inventorying similarly suspended projects around Pattaya would be reasonably indicative of what can be expected on this one.

Only during due diligence, prior to buying, can buyers avoid being pulled into the Thai Vortex's orbit .. a death spiral .. (uahh .. shudder) .. once they are drawn in, they are pretty much done.

This is pretty depressing stuff for some, I can well understand .. hopefully, though, threads as this are instructive to others .. a few of these stories should be printed on laminated cards and placed in airplane seat pockets on inbound flights, along with the emergency evacuation instructions.

 

Edited June 25, 2017 by brutox

[Gnorman]

34 minutes ago, brutox said:

Kind of you to think so, rhodie .. but, no .. I am no help.

Once anything is pulled into the Thai Vortex's massive gravity, it is done .. like a black hole, the more they devour the greater their intractable force .. I jokingly write that nothing survives their phenomenal crushing forces .. they pulverize molecular matter to smithereens .. subatomic detritus .. pre-sale condominiums, ATM accounts, farang hearts, farang 'nads! .. (eeeeyeow!).

We were highly selective in the distressed assets and NPL's that we acquired during the 1997 Asian Currency Crisis and I was loaded with international-grade local legal counsel, on whom I spent a ton of money (worth every baht) .. we made measured, high-risk investments on which I mapped clear pathways (difficult and butt-puckering scary) to achieving our very high return expectations.

Until the ownership is cleared, assets as these are simply black holes no one in their right minds will touch .. even if the ownership could be cleared, we are not the guys the unfortunate unsecured creditors would want to see .. recapitalizing projects as these and completing them almost always requires the secured creditors (banks, contractors, etc.) to accept a haircut on what they are owed, and wipes out the unsecured creditors (the condo buyers).

[  Maybe the OP, who offered one of these for sale back on page 1 can update us on any offers.  ]

Inventorying similarly suspended projects around Pattaya would be reasonably indicative of what can be expected on this one.

Only during due diligence, prior to buying, can buyers avoid being pulled into the Thai Vortex's orbit .. a death spiral .. (uahh .. shudder) .. once they are drawn in, they are pretty much done.

This is pretty depressing stuff for some, I can well understand .. hopefully, though, threads as this are instructive to others .. a few of these stories should be printed on laminated cards and placed in airplane seat pockets on inbound flights, along with the emergency evacuation instructions.

 

So if I read the bold paragraph correctly Brutox, existing condo owners of the newly taken over Golden Tulip development have very little to celebrate with the new developers and work restarting. Any monies paid prior to the new developers will lost and owners will have no claim to "their" condo as the new developer will resell every condo?

 

[rhodie]

1 hour ago, brutox said:

Kind of you to think so, rhodie .. but, no .. I am no help.

Once anything is pulled into the Thai Vortex's massive gravity, it is done .. like a black hole, the more they devour the greater their intractable force .. I jokingly write that nothing survives their phenomenal crushing forces .. they pulverize molecular matter to smithereens .. subatomic detritus .. pre-sale condominiums, ATM accounts, farang hearts, farang 'nads! .. (eeeeyeow!).

We were highly selective in the distressed assets and NPL's that we acquired during the 1997 Asian Currency Crisis and I was loaded with international-grade local legal counsel, on whom I spent a ton of money (worth every baht) .. we made measured, high-risk investments on which I mapped clear pathways (difficult and butt-puckering scary) to achieving our very high return expectations.

Until the ownership is cleared, assets as these are simply black holes no one in their right minds will touch .. even if the ownership could be cleared, we are not the guys the unfortunate unsecured creditors would want to see .. recapitalizing projects as these and completing them almost always requires the secured creditors (banks, contractors, etc.) to accept a haircut on what they are owed, and wipes out the unsecured creditors (the condo buyers).

[  Maybe the OP, who offered one of these for sale back on page 1 can update us on any offers.  ]

Inventorying similarly suspended projects around Pattaya would be reasonably indicative of what can be expected on this one.

Only during due diligence, prior to buying, can buyers avoid being pulled into the Thai Vortex's orbit .. a death spiral .. (uahh .. shudder) .. once they are drawn in, they are pretty much done.

This is pretty depressing stuff for some, I can well understand .. hopefully, though, threads as this are instructive to others .. a few of these stories should be printed on laminated cards and placed in airplane seat pockets on inbound flights, along with the emergency evacuation instructions.

 

The original was sold but clearly to a very unsuspecting buyer who paid $2mil + for a promise. At least the rest he owes the developer is a saving if he is eventually shafted. Poor form on OP, who I think is an agent, if he did not spell out the pitfalls, but I guess this is Thailand.

To those that bought, is the developer still taking periodic payments?

[Scuba+]

Yeah if you look back at the posts from the start of the thread..no warnings about buying off plan. Usual story, people are wiser in hindsight

[sabato]

1 hour ago, rhodie said:

The original was sold but clearly to a very unsuspecting buyer who paid $2mil + for a promise. At least the rest he owes the developer is a saving if he is eventually shafted. Poor form on OP, who I think is an agent, if he did not spell out the pitfalls, but I guess this is Thailand.

To those that bought, is the developer still taking periodic payments?

Poor form indeed. OP is a culpable party to this, as people voiced some warnings, and were told to go air it in another thread. No, because the buyers (of his second condo), were reading this thread, it absolutely deserved to be in this thread. OP seemed to be acutely aware of the risk (selling below developer sale price, after all), but unwilling to discuss it openly.

The due diligence responsibility argument is a fair one, but it cuts both ways. Did the OP do due diligence on the buyer, to be sure they won't hold a grudge when stiffed to the tune of 2m baht...

[brutox]

7 hours ago, brutox said:

 

..... Until the ownership is cleared, assets as these are simply black holes no one in their right minds will touch .. even if the ownership could be cleared, we are not the guys the unfortunate unsecured creditors would want to see .. recapitalizing projects as these and completing them almost always requires the secured creditors (banks, contractors, etc.) to accept a haircut on what they are owed, and wipes out the unsecured creditors (the condo buyers) .....

 

 

6 hours ago, Gnorman said:

So if I read the bold paragraph correctly Brutox, existing condo owners of the newly taken over Golden Tulip development have very little to celebrate with the new developers and work restarting. Any monies paid prior to the new developers will lost and owners will have no claim to "their" condo as the new developer will resell every condo?

 

My apologies, Gnorman, but I missed the recent project history .. I was unaware construction resumed, but by a new developer.

A couple of possibilities come to my mind:

• The old development company transfers the asset to a "new development company", which is really the old development company, just under a new name (all perfectly legitimate) .. this assumes the old development company somehow found the money to complete the project (perhaps pre-sales from the next project) .. the new development company completes the project, maybe cut costs everywhere they can (maybe reducing the scope of work), and sells the remaining units .. by continuing under another name, the old development company deflects any blowback from existing buyers for not completing the project as designed and on schedule (penalties for late delivery are common) .. more importantly, they conceal themselves from potential buyers who would be reluctant to buy into a project on which they failed; or,
• The old development company transfers the project to the general contractor .. if the contractor is financially strong enough, it takes developer risk (essentially market risk, at this point), completes the project with its own baht, and sells the remaining units to recover the old development company's unpaid bills; or,
• The old development company transfers the project outright to a genuinely new development company, at a discount .. the new development company negotiates a haircut (a discount) with the general contractor, completes the project, maybe cuts costs everywhere they can (maybe reduces the scope of work), and sells the remaining units; 

[  Of the above, the last is by far the most unlikely .. the first is the next most unlikely .. the second is the more likely scenario .. but .. who knows .. this is all speculation.  ]

Under all of the scenarios above, if the property is actually sold to a new development company, or into a new SPV (as in, the title deed changes names to a new owner, rather than the new development company merely accepts the shares in the old development company and assumes project ownership), the condo owners have very weak claims for their units from the new development company .. the court will rule that the obligation to the buyers is from the old development company (now empty), or the old SPV (presumably on "E") in which the project was held, .. not the new development company.

[ The carting away of assets from a company, with no trailing obligations, is legal here (yeah, unbelieveable) .. 

The buyers could sue the old development company/SPV, and get a favorable court decision (for brevity, I skip describing a long process here .. probably can't do it adequately anyway) .. the court would direct the defendant to return the buyer's money, or the title to a complete condo per the contract within some period of time .. if the old development company/SPV did not deliver the money (which it doesn't have), or the title (which it also doesn't have) in that time frame, the plaintiff could file for an attachment order .. if the court approved the attachment order, the Legal Execution Department would go to the Land Department with the order and attach any assets owned by the old development company/SPV (good luck with that) .. not necessarily this condo, or even this project .. assuming there was anything to find, the Land Department would transfer any titles to the Legal Execution Department, they would auction the assets and turn the cash proceeds over to the plaintiff.

[  The fallacy in this process is finding any assets to attach -- uhh, refer to today's front page news article on Yingluck Shinawatra's disappeared billions .. http://www.nationmultimedia.com/news/national/30318838.  ]

Gnorman, you ask whether the new development company can re-sell buyer's sold condos .. on this I am unsure, but I think so .. (except that selling a condo occupied under adverse possession might be difficult to explain to a buyer) .. in my friend's case above (Post ID #176), the landlord tried to resell his condo, and my buddy filed a fraud suit against her, which he won .. I'd have to think about how these two situations differ .. maybe someone with a Thai attorney can answer that.

I think I got the big pieces, but that's all I got right now, men .. thinking this hard again always makes my head hurt.

 

Edited June 24, 2017 by brutox

[Gnorman]

Thank you for taking the time to respond once again Brutox, fantastic knowledge as always. I really feel for all the poor unsuspecting investors that have been shafted by these arseholes, I hope all work out well for them.

Photos posted by bm Striderman April/May showing the name change on the now demolished sales building.

 

Edited June 24, 2017 by Gnorman

[striderman]

i have no idea on the status of existing investors i merely take a pic as i walk by if i spot something changing

 

i do however know a falang with a unit in the more or less completed centara section on the other side of Soi 15. last time i spoke to him he still has his unit but no sign of the chanute

Edited June 25, 2017 by striderman

[Swinga]

My understanding they changed the company name of development entity slightly, but mainatined the same registered company number. A shareholder change, losing one, gaining another, and business as usual.

Buyers asked to accept delay on construction by signing a letter. (Not sure why)

Hilton apparently, a big apparently, taking on the hotel. Said with a degree of sceptisim.

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[brutox]

4 hours ago, Swinga said:

My understanding they changed the company name of development entity slightly, but mainatined the same registered company number. A shareholder change, losing one, gaining another, and business as usual.

Buyers asked to accept delay on construction by signing a letter. (Not sure why)

Hilton apparently, a big apparently, taking on the hotel. Said with a degree of sceptisim.

Sent from my SM-C5000 using Tapatalk
 

Hard to guess at what they are doing without knowing whether they are the same people, or new investors, and what they've done with the ownership of the asset and the ownership structure within which that asset is held.

That they are asking owners to accept the construction delay (apparently to avoid penalties) is telling .. I'd be interested to hear what they say their recourse is if a buyer refuses to sign the concession letter .. if the delivery is so late and the penalties so high, the profit can be sufficiently reduced that the developer no longer has a profit motive, but is motivated only to avoid the threat of lawsuits (maybe not really a concern here, though).

[  Hey, Blueydog .. what does your Sale & Purchase Agreement say about penalties for delayed delivery?  ]

Swinga, from whom did you hear that Hilton will manage the hotel?.. (the developer? .. brokers? .. sales office?) .. recruiting yet another credible name like Hilton behind which to conceal past failures would be a smart scheme to attempt .. or, maybe it is just a rumor with which the broker babble is fed, trying to get the pre-sales going again.

If it is real, I wonder if Hilton's due diligence will be more thorough than Centara's, or Golden Tulip Resort's.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2017 by brutox

[Swinga]

Nova group, owner, Rony Fineman has taken shareholder status, with that Kobi Elbaz. running off to Macau with failed waterfront money. The other shareholder/director David Marsanio (spelling) remained. It's an all a jewish affair my understanding.

Yes brutox, sales pitch on Hilton jargon, taken at whim from sales staff.

This Soi/area now has Holiday Inn (via nova group) in construction, Mecure still there (Accor group), Centara, the big players must be looking at this area.

Time will tell if the wailing wall is real?

[brutox]

18 hours ago, Swinga said:

Nova group, owner, Rony Fineman has taken shareholder status, with that Kobi Elbaz. running off to Macau with failed waterfront money. The other shareholder/director David Marsanio (spelling) remained. It's an all a jewish affair my understanding.

Yes brutox, sales pitch on Hilton jargon, taken at whim from sales staff.

This Soi/area now has Holiday Inn (via nova group) in construction, Mecure still there (Accor group), Centara, the big players must be looking at this area.

Time will tell if the wailing wall is real?

Interesting stuff, Swinga .. Nova Group.

I had a developer analysis conducted on the Pattaya trade area some years ago, at which time I think I recall that the Nova Group had a track record of completing their projects .. none suspended .. but, unsure and I am too lazy to do the homework.

Wonder what kind of deal Nova Group did to acquire this one, and what their rehabilitation plan will be.

Keep in mind that the branded hotels circulating in the area are no guarantee that the economics work .. these guys are hotel operators only .. they are not investors .. they can craft an operating agreement for a dawg house in which they are without risk .. they understand the revenue side of an investment proforma fairly well, but not the cost side.

As "investment analysts", hotel operators will get an investor close, but not to an order of reliability upon which a sophisticated, disciplined hospitality investor would invest their treasure.

As in this case, brokers trying to sell condos will cite the glittering close-by hotel brands, misrepresenting a relationship that does not exist .. they are hotels .. not condos .. the economics of these two sectors are analyzed entirely differently.

 

Edited June 27, 2017 by brutox

[striderman]

6 hours ago, brutox said:

Interesting stuff, Swinga .. Nova Group.

I had a developer analysis conducted on the Pattaya trade area some years ago, at which time I think I recall that the Nova Group had a track record of completing their projects .. none suspended .. but, unsure and I am too lazy to do the homework.

 

couple of years back Nova were promoting a development condo tower called north beach in soi 22 off naklua rd between the dusit and cape dara but it seems to have fallen off the radar, i cannot get their site to load any info on it. so status unknown at least to me

[Halfaboy]

Could this info be related to your post: http://www.tgcondo.com/Property/north-beach-condo-for-sale-608/North-Pattaya  ?

[striderman]

28 minutes ago, Halfaboy said:

Could this info be related to your post: http://www.tgcondo.com/Property/north-beach-condo-for-sale-608/North-Pattaya  ?

that is the one, but i don't think anything has happened as far as serious construction. not my end of town.

[Halfaboy]

It is advertised with 'year built 2017'....

[striderman]

5 minutes ago, Halfaboy said:

It is advertised with 'year built 2017'....

well if it was built i would be able to see it from south pattaya and there is nothing big n new behind the dusit

[Halfaboy]

As soon as I have time I will have a look ....

[tjg27]

couple of years back Nova were promoting a development condo tower called north beach in soi 22 off naklua rd between the dusit and cape dara but it seems to have fallen off the radar, i cannot get their site to load any info on it. so status unknown at least to me

That Nova project was cancelled some time ago.

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[striderman]

june 28 the Soi 15 site

 

there is a sign far left of pic indicating the direction to a new showroom

[tjg27]

has anyone here bought one, I have and have been a little worried, I went in the other day and they said they have a full new contstruction team starting soon, and will be knocking down the sales office and showrooms end of year , but they will obviously be years behind, was supposed to be finished now, lol

Did you get any news yet? Hopefully you'll get the unit albeit delivered by Nova not Tulip?

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[chris2004]

On 24/06/2017 at 11:14 PM, striderman said:

i have no idea on the status of existing investors i merely take a pic as i walk by if i spot something changing

 

i do however know a falang with a unit in the more or less completed centara section on the other side of Soi 15. last time i spoke to him he still has his unit but no sign of the chanute

Until he gets the chanute it's not "his".

[striderman]

round the back of the site sunday afternoon and while it's a dry day for selling beer, i spotted workers in this section for the first time since january

 

 

 

walking the plank without any safety rail

 

 

note the land in the foreground has been cleared and fenced off which indicates some sort of development is coming

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by striderman

[KittenKong]

16 hours ago, striderman said:

note the land in the foreground has been cleared and fenced off which indicates some sort of development is coming

 

Whatever it is, those units near the wall will have a cracking view of it.

[striderman]

Just now, KittenKong said:

 

Whatever it is, those units near the wall will have a cracking view of it.

that was my thought also but i was trying not to depress anyone who may have an interest in those units