Jump to content
IGNORED

Hot Resale At The Golden Tulip - Foreign Quota


far east

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, brutox said:

The "by night" view .. uhhh ..  looks like the entrance to a hotel, not a residence .. very helpful to remember where you live, if you are a resident .. not that buyers would consider illegally renting out their units as hotel accommodations to the invading hordes.

This might be interesting .. has/will the juristic post the property as not for daily rentals? .. that might gouge a serious hole in the developer's plan to sell units to Thai investors, who could be a sizeable share of their target market .. I wonder how the developer might respond if owner-occupants asked him to do so.

[As I recall, the developer has control of the juristic until 50% of the units are sold.]

 

I think the developer has control until the first AGM when the initial committee members are elected by the owners.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, usexpat46 said:

I think the developer has control until the first AGM when the initial committee members are elected by the owners.  

Hey, usexpat46 .. I hear you .. but .. unless I am mistaken, each unit holder has one vote .. unless the Thai Condominium Act has been amended, until more that 50% of the units are transferred, the developer holds the majority of the unit holders votes.

My guess is that he will favor nothing that prevents him from selling units .. that would presumably include an outright prohibition on renting units as illegal hotel rooms.

2 hours ago, The Danimal said:

It would be interesting since they pushed very hard about the rentals during their sales pitch.

D'animal cites rentals as a hard pitch in their sale program .. I imagine Thai investors who routinely invest in rental units are a part of their target market.

Watch for it.

 

Edited by brutox

 

Hunter S. Thompson Insert.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, brutox said:

Hey, usexpat46 .. I hear you .. but .. unless I am mistaken, each unit holder has one vote .. unless the Thai Condominium Act has been amended, until more that 50% of the units are transferred, the developer holds the majority of the unit holders votes.

My guess is that he will favor nothing that prevents him from selling units .. that would presumably include an outright prohibition on renting units as illegal hotel rooms.

 

A unit holder's vote is based upon the size of his unit compared to the total size of all units combined. i.e. an owner who has a 100 sq meter unit has double the voting rights of an owner of a 50 sq meter unit and he'll also be paying double in CAM fees.  I don't know if the developer can vote on the unsold units, if he can then he should be paying CAM fees on those unsold units.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, usexpat46 said:

I don't know if the developer can vote on the unsold units, if he can then he should be paying CAM fees on those unsold units.

The Condominium Act was amended some years back because developers held inordinate power over their condominiums .. unit owners complained loudly.

Actually, there was no juristic because the developer could delay its formation and unfairly maintain control of the building even though he owned a minority of the gross building area .. the developer paid no CAMs and avoided expenses for himself (and his unsold units) by deferring maintenance, all of which the owners did paid .. it was a rigged deck.

I believe the Condominium Act amendments now requires formation of the juristic when 50% of the gross floor area was sold .. it also required the developer to pay their fair share of CAMs .. but, I believe the developer maintained the same voting rights as the unit buyers.

I've not read the Condominium Act in years, so my memory might be remiss .. but, if less than 50% of the gross floor area has been sold AND transferred, the developer might have greater control over the condominium than the unit owners.

 

 

Hunter S. Thompson Insert.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, brutox said:

The Condominium Act was amended some years back because developers held inordinate power over their condominiums .. unit owners complained loudly.

Actually, there was no juristic because the developer could delay its formation and unfairly maintain control of the building even though he owned a minority of the gross building area .. the developer paid no CAMs and avoided expenses for himself (and his unsold units) by deferring maintenance, all of which the owners did paid .. it was a rigged deck.

I believe the Condominium Act amendments now requires formation of the juristic when 50% of the gross floor area was sold .. it also required the developer to pay their fair share of CAMs .. but, I believe the developer maintained the same voting rights as the unit buyers.

I've not read the Condominium Act in years, so my memory might be remiss .. but, if less than 50% of the gross floor area has been sold AND transferred, the developer might have greater control over the condominium than the unit owners.

 

If the developer is paying CAM fees I have no problem with him voting as I would think that he would have as great or greater interest in keeping the complex in tip top shape as potential buyers wouldn't want to invest in a dump.  I bought my unit in Dec 2009 when less than half of the units were sold.  By mid March of the following year all units had been transferred at the land office and July we held our first AGM.  Small complex of 55 units and the developer transferred those unsold units to his 3 sons and himself.  Only 1 unit is occupied by the family as the others live in Bangkok and they rent their units to Japanese and Korean companies who put up their senior management and family members for 4 or 5 years at a time before they rotate them back to their home country.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, usexpat46 said:

Only 1 unit is occupied by the family as the others live in Bangkok and they rent their units to Japanese and Korean companies who put up their senior management and family members for 4 or 5 years at a time before they rotate them back to their home country

Corporate owners and farang are good neighbors to have, as they generally pay their fair share of common area maintenance (CAM) fees on time.

A quite large publically-traded and insolvent developer in which we invested during the Asian Currency Crisis here managed their own and a ton of third party condos.

My experience with them was that condos owned by individual Thai investors who rented out their units, or just sat on them as vacant were poorly maintained because they did not pay their fees.

Comparing Asian markets in which we invested during that period, private equity investors described Thailand as a 'culture of non-payment' .. it still persists. 

Condominiums with Thai and farang owner-occupants were far better maintained because the owners paid their fees and paid them on time.

The government finally put teeth into the Condominium Act regarding non-payment of CAMs .. cut utility services, blocked title transfers, codified late penalties (something like 12% p.a. up to 6 months and 20% p.a. beyond).

Condominium owners are far better off now than when the pre-Asia Currency Crisis Thai maniac developers ran the industry and their banks into the ground .. without legal restraints, there was then some serious horseshit going on here .. some real crookery.

This stuff was just the tip of the iceberg .. you would not believe what the banks were doing!

 

Edited by brutox

 

Hunter S. Thompson Insert.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 24/06/2019 at 15:15, brutox said:

This might be interesting .. has/will the juristic post the property as not for daily rentals? ..

 

Just like across the road they will post signs up and no one will do anything about it. It will be airbnb and bookig.com everywhere.owners will need to as a collective complain to police just like the recent one on BKK

Ask a silly question and i'll leave a silly answer  

Would have been easier if you googled it yourself.    

Thanks spelling and grammar checkers for being a ?%6433%#E

Quote if you expect a reply.  

THE THING ABOUT COMMON SENSE IS THAT IT'S THAT NOT COMMON                                                                        

 IT'S NOT ROCKET SURGERY       quote from Anna Nicole Smith.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I moved in today. Titlle deed in July
How come no chanote?

Sent from my CLT-L29 using Tapatalk

ummm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, wido said:

I moved in today. Titlle deed in July

 

9 hours ago, Swinga said:

How come no chanote?

Sent from my CLT-L29 using Tapatalk
 

Hey, wido .. congratulations on taking occupancy, if not ownership.

Title transfer is a very straight-forward assignment at the Land Department .. it will be next month? .. how do they explain this?

Regardless of what they tell you, it could well be that a lender is still holding your chanote as collateral against debt the developer still owes them .. if so, you paying-off the developer has no direct bearing on the lender's willingness to release the collateral .. lender terms typically include requirements that are totally irrelevant to your contract with the developer .. the developer's obligations to you (a sales agreement to which the lender is not a party) would not even be stipulated in the developer's obligations to the lender (a loan agreement to which you are not a party).

You've satisfied your obligations to the developer, but the developer needs to satisfy far more significant obligations to the lender that are beyond your means and knowledge.

You might want to be aware of this potential .. hopefully everything works out, if not smoothly .. but, the non-smooth part is expected when you combine: (i) a local-local developer; (ii) an off-plan purchase; (iii) a distressed asset: and, (iv) the potential of a non-traditional lender's involvement .. umm, add to that unsavory stew: (v) in Thailand.

Let us know how it goes, eh? .. this project has been very instructive to anyone buying an off-plan condo in Pattaya from a local-local developer.

 

Edited by brutox

 

Hunter S. Thompson Insert.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Knowing that a project has debt on it is important .. the reason is that the lender will always be first in line to get their money back, or first in line to take ownership of the collateral .. as collateral, the lender holds the project (and the individual buyer's units) .. payments made by the the buyer are totally unsecured in Thailand .. in the event of a loan default, the lender has the first right to them and the title deed in the event of foreclosure.

Anyone buying an off-play condo should always ask if the developer has a development loan .. the existence, or lack of a development loan directly reflects the 'developer risk' a buyer is taking . . very important .. developer risk is in my view the highest risk in the Thai property sector .. it is as great, or greater than the market risk.

Ask for a copy of the lender's commitment letter (which attests that the lender has signed a loan agreement):

  1. If the loan is by a major commercial bank, then great .. that tells you the developer is experienced, reputable, and financially creditworthy enough to meet higher market clearing loan terms (low developer risk) .. the bank's risk assessment process has qualified the developer, and buyers should be confident;
  2. If the loan is from a finance company, that tells you that the developer is probably experienced and reputable, but not so creditworthy .. the loan will have more stringent loan terms and a higher interest rate;
  3. If the loan is from anyone else, a 'lender' of last resort (something akin to a loan shark), there is likely to be no commitment letter .. you are then buying into an at risk project; and,
  4. If there is no loan at all, you are at maximum developer risk.. the developer is financing the project on the backs of the buyers deposits, which is the typical ploy of a local-local developer to whom no one will lend money.

I suspect this project falls in the 3rd or 4th category above.

 

Hunter S. Thompson Insert.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, wido said:

I moved in today. Titlle deed in July

Did you have to pay a transfer tax/fee to the Lands office?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, wido said:

I moved in today. Titlle deed in July

Which year?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, brutox said:

Knowing that a project has debt on it is important .. the reason is that the lender will always be first in line to get their money back, or first in line to take ownership of the collateral .. as collateral, the lender holds the project (and the individual buyer's units) .. payments made by the the buyer are totally unsecured in Thailand .. in the event of a loan default, the lender has the first right to them and the title deed in the event of foreclosure.

Anyone buying an off-play condo should always ask if the developer has a development loan .. the existence, or lack of a development loan directly reflects the 'developer risk' a buyer is taking . . very important .. developer risk is in my view the highest risk in the Thai property sector .. it is as great, or greater than the market risk.

Ask for a copy of the lender's commitment letter (which attests that the lender has signed a loan agreement):

  1. If the loan is by a major commercial bank, then great .. that tells you the developer is experienced, reputable, and financially creditworthy enough to meet higher market clearing loan terms (low developer risk) .. the bank's risk assessment process has qualified the developer, and buyers should be confident;
  2. If the loan is from a finance company, that tells you that the developer is probably experienced and reputable, but not so creditworthy .. the loan will have more stringent loan terms and a higher interest rate;
  3. If the loan is from anyone else, a 'lender' of last resort (something akin to a loan shark), there is likely to be no commitment letter .. you are then buying into an at risk project; and,
  4. If there is no loan at all, you are at maximum developer risk.. the developer is financing the project on the backs of the buyers deposits, which is the typical ploy of a local-local developer to whom no one will lend money.

I suspect this project falls in the 3rd or 4th category above.

You give great info...but the scare tactics at this point...while still might be in play...and all the doubters...is overplayed.  They wouldn't be this close to completion and making these great final finishes and completing all of these units...to not finish???  makes no sense...if they were gonna flake it would have happened a while back.  At some point all the haters and glass is half empty and doubters will just have to admit...this was a successful development in a perfect location and the risk was well rewarded...period.  Lucky...maybe...but get over it and take your lumps or victory laps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, The Danimal said:

You give great info...but the scare tactics at this point...while still might be in play...and all the doubters...is overplayed.  They wouldn't be this close to completion and making these great final finishes and completing all of these units...to not finish???  makes no sense...if they were gonna flake it would have happened a while back.  At some point all the haters and glass is half empty and doubters will just have to admit...this was a successful development in a perfect location and the risk was well rewarded...period.  Lucky...maybe...but get over it and take your lumps or victory laps.

It's not about it getting finished, it looks like it will be and for a while it didn't look like it would so I'm sure everyone is happy and wish the people well that purchased.

It's about whether your going to ever get your Chanote, or if it will be like across the road where allegedly people are still waiting for theirs after more than 2 years.

Cheers

image.png.6eb5df3c4b99a4189996c2a21d8f14af.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, The Danimal said:

You give great info...but the scare tactics at this point...while still might be in play...and all the doubters...is overplayed.  They wouldn't be this close to completion and making these great final finishes and completing all of these units...to not finish???  makes no sense...if they were gonna flake it would have happened a while back.  At some point all the haters and glass is half empty and doubters will just have to admit...this was a successful development in a perfect location and the risk was well rewarded...period.  Lucky...maybe...but get over it and take your lumps or victory laps.

It's not a successful development, have you looked at it and what's that empty land just in front of it? i thought it was part of the condo land but maybe they are selling it on

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Scuba+ said:

It's not a successful development, have you looked at it and what's that empty land just in front of it? i thought it was part of the condo land but maybe they are selling it on

so having the hotel equals success to you?  Brutox is correct...and it's prudent not to count your eggs until they've hated...as they say...it ain't over until the fat lady sings..but this is pretty close and who gives a fuck about the hotel??….you are digging pretty deep...I am more pissed about the hot tub removal...success is a nice place...CHECK...and getting your note...as Brutox stated....we will see

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, The Danimal said:

so having the hotel equals success to you?  Brutox is correct...and it's prudent not to count your eggs until they've hated...as they say...it ain't over until the fat lady sings..but this is pretty close and who gives a fuck about the hotel??….you are digging pretty deep...I am more pissed about the hot tub removal...success is a nice place...CHECK...and getting your note...as Brutox stated....we will see

I didn't realise that was meant to be a hotel, i guess something else will be built there. Let's be honest, based on the trouble at Centara, you won't get the Chanote for many months or years, but maybe you will get it next month as wido has been told

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Scuba+ said:

I didn't realise that was meant to be a hotel, i guess something else will be built there. Let's be honest, based on the trouble at Centara, you won't get the Chanote for many months or years, but maybe you will get it next month as wido has been told

No clue what the plan is...and I haven't seen an intelligent/informed post on here regarding what it might be other than eventually...a hotel

Edited by The Danimal
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, usexpat46 said:

Did you have to pay a transfer tax/fee to the Lands office?

The transfer fee (1% for the buyer) was mentioned on the final payment, but i didn't have to pay it as compensation for the delay. Otherwise i had to pay 28.000 baht for the decrease of the square meters after the land office  was taking the measures. I paid also for electricity and water meter and one year maintenance and sinking fund.

Edited by wido
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, The Danimal said:

You give great info...but the scare tactics at this point...while still might be in play...and all the doubters...is overplayed.  They wouldn't be this close to completion and making these great final finishes and completing all of these units...to not finish???  makes no sense...if they were gonna flake it would have happened a while back.  At some point all the haters and glass is half empty and doubters will just have to admit...this was a successful development in a perfect location and the risk was well rewarded...period.  Lucky...maybe...but get over it and take your lumps or victory laps.

 

12 hours ago, Evilfriar said:

It's not about it getting finished, it looks like it will be and for a while it didn't look like it would so I'm sure everyone is happy and wish the people well that purchased.

It's about whether your going to ever get your Chanote, or if it will be like across the road where allegedly people are still waiting for theirs after more than 2 years.

Cheers

Awww naw', Danimal .. do not misconstrue my comments as scare tactics .. they are merely cautions about what to be concerned .. you are not home yet.

As Evilfriar cites, there is an example right across the road .. a finished project .. still, no chanotes for 'occupants' .. they are not yet 'owners' .. the lender is the owner.

A friend is paid-up fully on a THB45m condo in a building finished about 5, of 6 years ago in Bangkok .. he still has no chanote .. the problem is between the lender and the developer, who cross-collateralized the project with another project that failed .. my friend's project is fully sold out, but the lender holds the chanotes in his building as collateral in the developer's other failed project .. it reeeeally sucks to be him.

So, the concern about which I caution has nothing to do with the project completion .. it has to do with a common feature in loan terms relating the release of any collateral based on meeting overall sales benchmarks, the proceeds of which are used to retire the debt.

An exaggerated explanation:  if you are the only unit in the project that is sold, you are fully paid-up, and the project is complete .. you still do not get your chanote because the loan terms stipulate that collateral will not be released until a certain amount of debt is retired (paid from sale proceeds) .. irrespective of which units are sold .. respective only of overall project sales .. the collateral that the developer pledged to the lender includes your unit .. (oh, soooo sorry).

So .. now .. let's wait a minute .. this all started out presuming the developer has debt on the project .. if he is financing the project out of his own pocket (highly unlikely), there might be no issue at all (other than why it is taking so long to simply transfer title) .. I will wager that the developer is financed as I described in post #1559, above.

If .. if .. that is the case, then the question is what percent of the overall project is sold? .. if substantially sold, then no problem .. the delay in getting your title has to do with clearing the loan .. if delays arise, the loan terms are likely the source .. it will be fully out of your control, and you have no legal recourse .. that's the deal you signed onto .. you are not a party to, nor will you have access to, the lender's loan agreement.

I say it again, Danimal, that I hope everything works out .. I do not intend this as a scare tactic (to what end, I do not know) .. but, honestly, until you get the chanote you should be at least cautious and aware .. holy crap, man! .. you bought an off plan unit, in which your payments are totally unsecured, from a local-local developer, in Pattaya, Thailand .. in my experience, that is risky investing .. until you get your chanote, you are still in the shark tank.

Look forward to hearing that you are an 'owner'.

 

Edited by brutox

 

Hunter S. Thompson Insert.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.