Yep I said it. If you are participating in P4P on a regular basis, and that includes one to a few regular trips a year, you should get sterilized. It is the right thing to do for you and the girls you are with.

 

"You should be bagged up anyway" many of you will say. This is true, using condoms is another thing that is the right thing to do. But here is the rub…

 

Condoms are not 100% effective, even when used right. They do break now and then, they slip off sometimes, maybe they are damaged, by accident or purposely. 

 

I even remember a case back in the states of a guy who impregnated a girl without even fucking her, all he ever got was a few covered blow jobs. She saved his loads in the condom and did some homebrew artificial insemination, and he was on the hook for a lifetime of child support.

 

All this is discounting those moments when you have a hot girl in your bed and she offers you bareback, or maybe hops right on it without asking. Maybe you have had a few beers or you really like this girl and have been with her for a while, yadda yadda. You can't know for sure if she is not gonna get knocked up.  She might even show you her birth control pills, but there is no guarantee those aren't just some tic tacs stuffed up in there…

 

Think about it, what are you going to do if she does get pregnant? Now you have a potential baby that you are responsible for. Sure in Thailand it is easy for a guy to bail and leave a Thai girl holding the diaper bag. Just because it is easy does not make it any less wrong. And have no doubt, to make a baby and abandon it is simply wrong, by any ethical standard.

 

So what you gonna do? Abortion is pretty much illegal and unavailable in Thailand. Are you gonna hand her over to some back alley 'clinic' and hope they don't kill her? Are you gonna marry her and try that road? Just start sending money to take care for the next 20 years or so? Take the kid back home and hope your mom/sister/whoever will take care of it for you?

 

Or maybe, before this nightmare scenario plays out, you go in to the doctor and have a procedure that is far less time consuming and painful than getting a tooth filled. A procedure that will guarantee that you have a 0% chance of fathering a baby.

 

Now some might say that doing this will increase your chances of falling into the temptation of going bareback, thus increasing the risk of spreading disease. Think of it this way. 2 people who are both involved in sex work, a patron and a provider, are adults and consent to take a risk. Mostly that risk only involves the 2 of them, but to an extent it also involves other patrons and providers. 

 

There is added risk for those peripheral patrons and providers, but they are also (presumably) adults and consenting to take the risks that are inherently involved in participating in sex work. It is an ethical consideration well worth thinking long and hard about, if you will excuse the pun.

 

The one thing that is not risked when barebacking as a sterilized P4P patron, however, is the creation of an innocent life that has no opportunity to consent to it's circumstances. The baby is also at risk of disease, and is almost certainly at high risk of being raised in relative poverty, because most girls here as sex workers come from very poor circumstances. 

 

The chance of bringing a non-adult, completely innocent and dependent human into the equation is a much, much bigger ethical concern than risking the temptation to add some peripheral risk to other consenting adults.

 

Furthermore, in many places in the west you can get the snip for free. Insurance, national health services, and NGO's cover the costs in lots of places, and even if you have to pay out of pocket, the cost is low, far less than most of us spend in a day or 2 partying here in Pattaya. The cost is almost incalculably less than one would pay for taking care of a baby for a couple decades, or more.

 

So I say again, if you are a regular monger, get the snip. Just do it. It really is the right thing, and the smart thing, to do.

 

Yep I said it.....

 

I even remember a case back in the states of a guy who impregnated a girl without even fucking her, all he ever got was a few covered blow jobs. She saved his loads in the condom and did some homebrew artificial insemination, and he was on the hook for a lifetime of child support.

 

When this is the case , i'm sorry it might be my sperm (but not my baby) i'm not gonna take care of it and spoil my life on a kid i never wanted in the first place .

 

Think about it, what are you going to do if she does get pregnant? Now you have a potential baby that you are responsible for. Sure in Thailand it is easy for a guy to bail and leave a Thai girl holding the diaper bag. Just because it is easy does not make it any less wrong. And have no doubt, to make a baby and abandon it is simply wrong, by any ethical standard.

 

You're thinking with a Western (American) ethical mindset . In Asia this isn't much of a problem and the family will take good care of the baby regardless if you pay or not .

A baby is their insurance for the future .

 

So what you gonna do? Abortion is pretty much illegal and unavailable in Thailand. Are you gonna hand her over to some back alley 'clinic' and hope they don't kill her? Are you gonna marry her and try that road? Just start sending money to take care for the next 20 years or so? Take the kid back home and hope your mom/sister/whoever will take care of it for you?

 

Abortion is illegal but there are some good clinics that will take care of 'the problem' for around 10k bht . I will offer to pay for the abortion if i really don't want the baby but

again i not gonna spoil the next 20 years taking care and paying for something i didn't want .

 

............... The cost is almost incalculably less than one would pay for taking care of a baby for a couple decades, or more.

So I say again, if you are a regular monger, get the snip. Just do it. It really is the right thing, and the smart thing, to do.

 

Agree with you on this one if you wanna avoid all the troubles and you're shore you don't want kids anymore .

 

When this is the case , i'm sorry it might be my sperm (but not my baby) i'm not gonna take care of it and spoil my life on a kid i never wanted in the first place .

 

 

A DNA test can easily confirm if the pregnancy is your responsibility. No one want's to be in a car accident, but the responsible party is expected to cover the damages. Just because you don't want something does not mean you have no responsibilities concerning it. 

 

You're thinking with a Western (American) ethical mindset . In Asia this isn't much of a problem and the family will take good care of the baby regardless if you pay or not. A baby is their insurance for the future.

 

 

It is still considered wrong to make a baby with a lady and then abrogate ones fatherly responsibilities, even in Thailand. Sure the family will come together to help with the child as any healthy family anywhere would. 'In Asia' or anywhere else it takes a lot of time and resources to raise a child, to simply say it is 'not much of a problem' is ridiculous and incredibly self centered.

 

Furthermore, are you not also a western person? Do you check your concsiense at the border crossing when you get your passport stamped and pick it up on the way home?

 

Abortion is illegal but there are some good clinics that will take care of 'the problem' for around 10k bht . I will offer to pay for the abortion if i really don't want the baby but again i not gonna spoil the next 20 years taking care and paying for something i didn't want.

 

There can be serious complications from an abortion even when done by a highly skilled medical professional. Do you think someone who is doing these proceedures are at the top of thier class? Do you not think they will hesitate to take a woman having complications from an illegal proceedure to a hospital? And this is a risk you want her to take when you could have done something to stop the situation from ever occuring? 

 

 

 

Good idea IMO.

 

The age issue hasn't come up. But the only old guys pushing strollers that look happy are the grandfather's who can hand them back.

 

A DNA test can easily confirm if the pregnancy is your responsibility. No one want's to be in a car accident, but the responsible party is expected to cover the damages. Just because you don't want something does not mean you have no responsibilities concerning it. 

 

Not when i'm tricked into it ...

 

It is still considered wrong to make a baby with a lady and then abrogate ones fatherly responsibilities, even in Thailand. Sure the family will come together to help with the child as any healthy family anywhere would. 'In Asia' or anywhere else it takes a lot of time and resources to raise a child, to simply say it is 'not much of a problem' is ridiculous and incredibly self centered.

 

Like i said you're still thinking with a Western mindset . In Thailand do as the Thais do . In up country Thailand it is very cheap and easy to raise a kid .

In my opinion (and in most of the Thais opinion) not much of a problem . You only live once (in that i differ from the Thais) and not gonna spoil it on

raising a kid i never wanted in the first place . If you wanna call it ridiculous and self centered so be it ...

 

Furthermore, are you not also a western person? Do you check your concsiense at the border crossing when you get your passport stamped and pick it up on the way home?

 

I'm born in the West but Thailand is my home for the last 4 years . I go on holiday to the West only to realize i don't belong there anymore .

So happy Thailand is not a nanny state like the US or Australia and people are allowed to make treir own decisions .

 

There can be serious complications from an abortion even when done by a highly skilled medical professional. Do you think someone who is doing these proceedures are at the top of thier class? Do you not think they will hesitate to take a woman having complications from an illegal proceedure to a hospital? And this is a risk you want her to take when you could have done something to stop the situation from ever occuring? 

 

Been there done that . There's a very modern well equiped hospital in Bangkok that does abortions so not much of a risk .

 

 

 

A DNA test can easily confirm if the pregnancy is your responsibility. No one want's to be in a car accident, but the responsible party is expected to cover the damages. Just because you don't want something does not mean you have no responsibilities concerning it. 

 

Not when i'm tricked into it ...

 

It is still considered wrong to make a baby with a lady and then abrogate ones fatherly responsibilities, even in Thailand. Sure the family will come together to help with the child as any healthy family anywhere would. 'In Asia' or anywhere else it takes a lot of time and resources to raise a child, to simply say it is 'not much of a problem' is ridiculous and incredibly self centered.

 

Like i said you're still thinking with a Western mindset . In Thailand do as the Thais do . In up country Thailand it is very cheap and easy to raise a kid .

In my opinion (and in most of the Thais opinion) not much of a problem . You only live once (in that i differ from the Thais) and not gonna spoil it on

raising a kid i never wanted in the first place . If you wanna call it ridiculous and self centered so be it ...

 

Furthermore, are you not also a western person? Do you check your concsiense at the border crossing when you get your passport stamped and pick it up on the way home?

 

I'm born in the West but Thailand is my home for the last 4 years . I go on holiday to the West only to realize i don't belong there anymore .

So happy Thailand is not a nanny state like the US or Australia and people are allowed to make treir own decisions .

 

There can be serious complications from an abortion even when done by a highly skilled medical professional. Do you think someone who is doing these proceedures are at the top of thier class? Do you not think they will hesitate to take a woman having complications from an illegal proceedure to a hospital? And this is a risk you want her to take when you could have done something to stop the situation from ever occuring? 

 

Been there done that . There's a very modern well equiped hospital in Bangkok that does abortions so not much of a risk .

 

 

 

Do as the Thais do only goes so far, I'm not gonna throw trash in the street and I'm not gonna leave babies behind, any ethical person would feel the same. 

 

Let me turn this around. You say you live here and you have no interest in raising babies. What reason do you have to NOT get the snip? Especially considering it is a very safe, cheap and painless way to ensure an unwanted pregnancy can never happen?

 

Any abortion is a HUGE risk in comparison to the tiny risk associated with getting the snip. 

Do as the Thais do only goes so far, I'm not gonna throw trash in the street and I'm not gonna leave babies behind, any ethical person would feel the same. 

 

Let me turn this around. You say you live here and you have no interest in raising babies. What reason do you have to NOT get the snip? Especially considering it is a very safe, cheap and painless way to ensure an unwanted pregnancy can never happen?

 

Any abortion is a HUGE risk in comparison to the tiny risk associated with getting the snip. 

 

If you read my first reply again you see i agree with you on that point .

Totally disagree with you here. Personally i would NEVER get sterilized! The thought of such an act sickens me and should be down to choice and not some noble responsibility. If i ever got a bargirl (or any girl) pregnant then i would take responsibility and do the right thing by the baby. This is a human life we are talking about here so comparing costs of sterilization to cost of bringing up a baby is imo very wrong!! Talking about abortion like we are all pro abortion also sounds like you are only thinking from your own personal point of view. I personally do not believe in abortion except on special circumstances.

 

Also are you also saying guys in their 20's and 30's or even 40's and 50's who would one day want to settle down and have kids should get sterilized just becuase they come to Pattaya? There are many people who live in both worlds or dating regular girls while also banging bargirls who may one day settle down with a regular/bar girl and have kids so should they also get sterilized too?

 

Now if someone wants to get sterlized for their own personal reasons then yes fine up to you but dont start a thread saying others should do so too just cause you are looking for the easy way out.

Edited April 15, 201313 yr by bestmate

I'm 38. Never been married or had kids. Should I get the snip? Or just stick to condoms and quality lube!

I'm 38. Never been married or had kids. Should I get the snip? Or just stick to condoms and quality lube!

That is a decision only you can make.   I am 20 years older than you and I have an appointment to get the snip next month.  It's too late for me to start a family, and apart from that, I am too busy having a good time travelling to use my limited financial resources paying for a kid.

I've been eligible for a retirement visa for almost a decade now, I got hitched to my Thai lady, who's got grown up kids, as have I, a few years ago. We had a long chat about having more kids, both agreed that we didn't want them, and I took myself off and got snipped.

 

Fringe benefits are non of the problems as written above should I (cough) stray ....

 

Who, me, in Pattaya ??  Never ....

 

Still use condoms away from home though, you never know what the girl is carrying.

Sorry could not disagree more Why should I or others who put it about do this maybe I or they want more kids later so what then ?

 

As we all are so fond of saying up to you and to post otherwise is wrong.

 

Ghosty

I can understand where you are coming from, and it is only an issue if the party involved declines to face up to his responsibilities. So if I was the sort of guy that thought' fuck it, if she gets pregnant then it is her problem, not mine' then I could see your logic.

 

However, what I fail to see is what is so special about 'mongering'? Surely the same argument could be made for a guy who goes through multiple partners at home, outside P4P. I think the crux of the discussion is not the circumstances, rather the attitude and morals of the individual(s) involved.

 

GeeMan

Well the risk of unwanted pregnancy when using a condom properly (and the typical monger is much much more likely to use it properly than the average bloke - much more experience ;-) ) is really small.

Really really small....

U need to rupture it without being aware of it (or at the last moment), meaning a partial rupture and a limited amount of sperm. And then u need to have pregnancy with those less than ideal conditions (far from 100% preg even if you are trying hard to have a baby).

 

Of course the risk is not zero, but it is so crazily small  that it is almost impossible to use it to justify the price and inconvenience of a snip.....even without taking into account that, as implausible as it sounds (for me for example ;-) ), you may want to be a dad in some distant future (and that quite a few countries will refuse the snip if u do not already have a few kids anyway).

 

I said almost impossible, because still you may argue for it, if:

 

-you are a saint, able to do everything to prevent any risk for your beloved fellow human beings. I guess then that you never drive any personal vehicle, do not work in a competitive zero sum area (probably doing voluntary unpaid help in a leprosery anyway), and all this while having a very low (and very unusual for a westerner) ecological footprint.

 

-you have very wrong estimations of the relative risk that your different activities may impact on others.

 

-you have strange notion about what is worse for your fellow humans, i.e. unwanted pregnancy versus multiple deaths and severe diabilities in a car crash for example.

 

- you have a agenda and voluntarily misrepresent risks associated with an activity you disapprove, in order to try to discourage it ( you hate mongers, and think this approach is a more clever angle to discourage then that the usual PC preaching - well done 555)

 

- u are not serious, just signaling how responsible u are regarding paternity and thus improving your dad worthiness for chicks. This would improve your chances to get laid without paying (great idea my fellow machiavel, but this not the best forum for maximum impact) 

 

My personal guess is that is a mix of 2, 3 and 4 (that are somehow linked, one always overestimate the risk for something we disapprove and/or want to prevent).

 

Probably because you are american (and thus have been brainwashed into that biological paternity involves necessarily a set of moral obligations that are above the 10 commandments - as an excuse your legal system has been written with this assumption - so even if you were not brainwashed you may have trouble escaping natural reflexes and fully understand the Thai situation. Well, maybe it's me that do not fully understand the american craziness: Can a Thai girl get paternity support if she is clever enough to go to an american court? I am European, so have difficulties to fully grasp the Orwellian horror of the American situation here, it is bad for me too....but not THIS bad.)

 

PS. I hope my American friends will excuse me na...As a mea culpa, I am fully ready to acknowledge that the EU has his own orwellian pitfalls. Ecologically for example, you are lucky.....But less and less (while paternity in Europe may well align with america in the future ..... oh my, this is a better argument for the snip that monger unwanted kids - who would like to raise kids who will have to live with the US sex and drug puritanist laws combined with the EU ecological and economic great leap forward? Not me ;-)

Edited April 16, 201313 yr by gregkai

OK first off I want to say that of course it is your choice. like everything in life it is 'up to you', I started with a sort of preachy stance in hopes of strirring some discusiion on the topic, To mor honestly stae my case I'd say instead of "Should Get Sterilised" something like "Should Seriously Consider Carefully The Possible Benefits of Being Sterilized"

 

All opinions I state here are mine, but I still reserve the right to state them as strongly as I please.

 

Totally disagree with you here. Personally i would NEVER get sterilized! The thought of such an act sickens me and should be down to choice and not some noble responsibility. If i ever got a bargirl (or any girl) pregnant then i would take responsibility and do the right thing by the baby. This is a human life we are talking about here so comparing costs of sterilization to cost of bringing up a baby is imo very wrong!! Talking about abortion like we are all pro abortion also sounds like you are only thinking from your own personal point of view. I personally do not believe in abortion except on special circumstances.

 

Also are you also saying guys in their 20's and 30's or even 40's and 50's who would one day want to settle down and have kids should get sterilized just becuase they come to Pattaya? There are many people who live in both worlds or dating regular girls while also banging bargirls who may one day settle down with a regular/bar girl and have kids so should they also get sterilized too?

 

Now if someone wants to get sterlized for their own personal reasons then yes fine up to you but dont start a thread saying others should do so too just cause you are looking for the easy way out.

Do you think being sterile makes you less virile, less of a man? Not attacking, just asking. I can say I have enjoyed sex more since I had the snip and honestly wish Ihad done ityears and years earlier.

 

I don't think it is inappropriate to think about the costs. Raising a child is perhaps one of the most expensive endeavors a person can undertake. One should consider all the aspects of being a parent before becoming one.

 

Possible future parenthood is something to consder for the younger guys, sure. But think of this, there are lots and lots of babies out there with no homes or families, why not consider taking in one of those children to rais instead of insisting on one created from your own DNA? 

 

And if you are really stuck on the idea you may want to use your own DNA keep your eye on this new proceedure that should be availble soon. A 10 year male contraceptive injection that can easily be reversed at any time.

 

No,i cant afford it.

 

Like I said, almost anywhere in the west you can have the proceedure essentially free. Even out of pocket the cost in America (where medical costs are highly inflated) it is only about $200, It should be less elsewhere.

 

 

I'm 38. Never been married or had kids. Should I get the snip? Or just stick to condoms and quality lube!

 

 

I would say yes, do it. It is incredibly liberating to know you cannot be tied down by an accidental pregnancy.

 

I've been eligible for a retirement visa for almost a decade now, I got hitched to my Thai lady, who's got grown up kids, as have I, a few years ago. We had a long chat about having more kids, both agreed that we didn't want them, and I took myself off and got snipped.

 

Fringe benefits are non of the problems as written above should I (cough) stray ....

 

Who, me, in Pattaya ??  Never ....

 

Still use condoms away from home though, you never know what the girl is carrying.

 

Would you agee it is a great feeling to know it's just not possible to accedentally create a child?

 

I can understand where you are coming from, and it is only an issue if the party involved declines to face up to his responsibilities. So if I was the sort of guy that thought' fuck it, if she gets pregnant then it is her problem, not mine' then I could see your logic.

 

However, what I fail to see is what is so special about 'mongering'? Surely the same argument could be made for a guy who goes through multiple partners at home, outside P4P. I think the crux of the discussion is not the circumstances, rather the attitude and morals of the individual(s) involved.

 

GeeMan

 

Totally true. But this is a monger board and I think it is an issue every monger should think about seriously.

 

Well the risk of unwanted pregnancy when using a condom properly (and the typical monger is much much more likely to use it properly than the average bloke - much more experience ;-) ) is really small.

Really really small....

U need to rupture it without being aware of it (or at the last moment), meaning a partial rupture and a limited amount of sperm. And then u need to have pregnancy with those less than ideal conditions (far from 100% preg even if you are trying hard to have a baby).

 

Of course the risk is not zero, but it is so crazily small  that it is almost impossible to use it to justify the price and inconvenience of a snip.....even without taking into account that, as implausible as it sounds (for me for example ;-) ), you may want to be a dad in some distant future (and that quite a few countries will refuse the snip if u do not already have a few kids anyway).

 

I said almost impossible, because still you may argue for it, if:

 

-you are a saint, able to do everything to prevent any risk for your beloved fellow human beings. I guess then that you never drive any personal vehicle, do not work in a competitive zero sum area (probably doing voluntary unpaid help in a leprosery anyway), and all this while having a very low (and very unusual for a westerner) ecological footprint.

 

-you have very wrong estimations of the relative risk that your different activities may impact on others.

 

-you have strange notion about what is worse for your fellow humans, i.e. unwanted pregnancy versus multiple deaths and severe diabilities in a car crash for example.

 

- you have a agenda and voluntarily misrepresent risks associated with an activity you disapprove, in order to try to discourage it ( you hate mongers, and think this approach is a more clever angle to discourage then that the usual PC preaching - well done 555)

 

- u are not serious, just signaling how responsible u are regarding paternity and thus improving your dad worthiness for chicks. This would improve your chances to get laid without paying (great idea my fellow machiavel, but this not the best forum for maximum impact) 

 

My personal guess is that is a mix of 2, 3 and 4 (that are somehow linked, one always overestimate the risk for something we disapprove and/or want to prevent).

 

Probably because you are american (and thus have been brainwashed into that biological paternity involves necessarily a set of moral obligations that are above the 10 commandments - as an excuse your legal system has been written with this assumption - so even if you were not brainwashed you may have trouble escaping natural reflexes and fully understand the Thai situation. Well, maybe it's me that do not fully understand the american craziness: Can a Thai girl get paternity support if she is clever enough to go to an american court? I am European, so have difficulties to fully grasp the Orwellian horror of the American situation here, it is bad for me too....but not THIS bad.)

 

PS. I hope my American friends will excuse me na...As a mea culpa, I am fully ready to acknowledge that the EU has his own orwellian pitfalls. Ecologically for example, you are lucky.....But less and less (while paternity in Europe may well align with america in the future ..... oh my, this is a better argument for the snip that monger unwanted kids - who would like to raise kids who will have to live with the US sex and drug puritanist laws combined with the EU ecological and economic great leap forward? Not me ;-)

 

The cost can almost always be brought down to essentially zero, and the inconvenience is negligble. A proceedure that is far less uncomfortable than having a cavity filled followed by a couple days laying around wearing a jock strap and icing your nutsack. Compare that to the 'inconveniece' of a woman carrying your child for 9 months and risking death in childbirth. No it does not happen much anymore, but women do still die from complications of pregnancy.

 

I don't really know what to say about your take on my motivations. I can boil down my point of view on the matter for you though; I do my best to clean up my own messes, or better yet, not make a mess that needs cleaning in the first place. I try to act in a way that gives me maximun enjoyment of my time on this planet while minmizing my negative impact on others around me. Do I do this perfectly, or is my understanding of my impact on others perfect? Not even close, but it gives me a standard to strive for.

 

Most folks go through life letting society tell them what is right and wrong and they happily take those rules to be truth. Some of us chose to step outside those rules. By chosing to be a regular monger, I think most of us here fit in that category.

 

But I believe that once one chooses to make ones own rules, it is incumbent on one to thoghtfully undertake the task of making new rules for one's self, and not simply abandon all ethical considerations.

Most folks go through life letting society tell them what is right and wrong and they happily take those rules to be truth. Some of us chose to step outside those rules. By chosing to be a regular monger, I think most of us here fit in that category.

 

But I believe that once one chooses to make ones own rules, it is incumbent on one to thoghtfully undertake the task of making new rules for one's self, and not simply abandon all ethical considerations.

 

Truer words have never been said, and I apologize if I sounded like a prick before. I was attempting to both be funny for people not freezed in a Politically Correct mindset (something not easy to do in a foreign langage, and I guess most have guessed by now English is not my native language ;-)) while completely pissing off the PC sheeps (something that is easy to do in any language).

 

That being said, when u start to build ur own ethical system, it is very difficult to be coherent (great mind have failed before. Imho nobody has succeded, one more reason to use our own imperfect version, rather than somebody else imperfect one ;-) ) . It is also difficult to start from a blank state and completely get rid of the culturally imposed one, it's more like people break a few rules (minor ones usually, either by inclination or accident), which either induce nothing for the less abstract minds, guilt and sometimes more strict adherence to other rules for other, and try to rebuild a modified and somewhat coherent system for the most philosophically minded ones. Or jail time for the less fortunates that broke major rules and got caught ;)

 

We probably started from different system, even if we both strayed out mainstream (mongering is not allowed in the french system either. Germans have much less stigmata attached to this - strange, isn't it? With France reputation abroad (and the way frenchies like to think of themselves, so much more sexually free than everybody) truth is quite different: it is liberated only in talk, if you want guiltless sex look at Germany and the Netherland, even Spain (but not the Nordic states, there it is feminarchy ).

 

Biological paternity do not play such a big role even in mainstream french ethic, basically whole paternity start when the child is recognized, before it is partial responsability. Which makes sense given the multiple possibilities (the girl can abort, chirurgically or with a pill, or anonymously give the child to an orphanage) - on her own, even against the biological father will. Plus she had the choice to use a reversible, undetectable birth control in the first place. Something that is unfortunately not available to men right now. In those conditions, paternal responsability at the conception is not tenable imho. It may have been before, but in the modern world, it is not. 

 

Still the partial responsability is problematic, in some case an American-like decision has been choosen by some judges, when there was a legal dispute.

Even if some feminist try to move things the american way, they tends to be silenced by those arguments, which are used by a female lawyer to remove the partial responsability with some success (rational discourse still has a little bit of strength left here - even in the judicial system. For how long, I don't know :-( )

 

Thailand is in some way reminiscent of the past, abortion is more difficult, no european-like health insurrance and the average bar girl is less wealthy - although, this is highly debatable, given the price differential between thailand and the western world. Think gogo girl purchaising power compared to a typical westerner...But as other have mentioned, Thai perception of the child and mutual responsabilities is quite different, especially in rural families. (Westernized families also have acces to modern contraception and can choose to abort, even travelling abroad if necessary -so the western arguments against paternal responsability apply). I also have trouble with this [after a relatively short childhood, the child becomes responsible for his parents and should be greateful for having been born], but it is not because the Thai idea is less worthy, it is because the western way is still part of my ethical system, however altered it is compared to the mainstream. 

 

I am not advertising complete relativism here, telling that all ethical systems are equally worthy, but think of it: why is your biologically conceived child so different from other childs, for who you do not take responsability? Is it because it has been born from your "mistake"? but you have taken all reasonable precautions (appart from abstinence, but we already are discussing about mongerer here), it would have been purely accidental (something that prevent murder accusation under most legal system and most ethical ones too). Because it has half of your genes? you can indeed construct a very coherent ethical system like this, but it is a slippery slope and you end up with something that will be very far from mainstream as far as ethics go. Something that will makes mongering looks like an innocent past time to the PC crowds.

 

So I agree with other and I think that I have proved that you can have this position while still having an ethical system at least as coherent as the one u advertise: in the (very unlikely) event of a condom break and subsequent pregnancy, i would feel extremely limited responsability to the (potential) child. Assuming no intention to create a family with the girl (one never know, we could really love each other, live forever happy and have many more desired pregnancies ;) ), I would pay for a good abortion (which is not really risky, no more than breast implants. Maybe more than a snip, but we are speaking of a very small chance of needing it in the first place here), and nothing more, exactly as I would do with a non professional in my own country.

Edited April 16, 201313 yr by gregkai

Hmmmm....don't think you've really thought this through.

 

For starters there's the whole issue of going bb with working girls and all the associated risks...this attitude/approach could have some really bad consequences...

Edited April 16, 201313 yr by asmodeus

 

Yep I said it. If you are participating in P4P on a regular basis, and that includes one to a few regular trips a year, you should get sterilized. It is the right thing to do for you and the girls you are with.

 

"You should be bagged up anyway" many of you will say. This is true, using condoms is another thing that is the right thing to do. But here is the rub…

 

Condoms are not 100% effective, even when used right. They do break now and then, they slip off sometimes, maybe they are damaged, by accident or purposely. 

 

I even remember a case back in the states of a guy who impregnated a girl without even fucking her, all he ever got was a few covered blow jobs. She saved his loads in the condom and did some homebrew artificial insemination, and he was on the hook for a lifetime of child support.

 

All this is discounting those moments when you have a hot girl in your bed and she offers you bareback, or maybe hops right on it without asking. Maybe you have had a few beers or you really like this girl and have been with her for a while, yadda yadda. You can't know for sure if she is not gonna get knocked up.  She might even show you her birth control pills, but there is no guarantee those aren't just some tic tacs stuffed up in there…

 

Think about it, what are you going to do if she does get pregnant? Now you have a potential baby that you are responsible for. Sure in Thailand it is easy for a guy to bail and leave a Thai girl holding the diaper bag. Just because it is easy does not make it any less wrong. And have no doubt, to make a baby and abandon it is simply wrong, by any ethical standard.

 

So what you gonna do? Abortion is pretty much illegal and unavailable in Thailand. Are you gonna hand her over to some back alley 'clinic' and hope they don't kill her? Are you gonna marry her and try that road? Just start sending money to take care for the next 20 years or so? Take the kid back home and hope your mom/sister/whoever will take care of it for you?

 

Or maybe, before this nightmare scenario plays out, you go in to the doctor and have a procedure that is far less time consuming and painful than getting a tooth filled. A procedure that will guarantee that you have a 0% chance of fathering a baby.

 

Now some might say that doing this will increase your chances of falling into the temptation of going bareback, thus increasing the risk of spreading disease. Think of it this way. 2 people who are both involved in sex work, a patron and a provider, are adults and consent to take a risk. Mostly that risk only involves the 2 of them, but to an extent it also involves other patrons and providers. 

 

There is added risk for those peripheral patrons and providers, but they are also (presumably) adults and consenting to take the risks that are inherently involved in participating in sex work. It is an ethical consideration well worth thinking long and hard about, if you will excuse the pun.

 

The one thing that is not risked when barebacking as a sterilized P4P patron, however, is the creation of an innocent life that has no opportunity to consent to it's circumstances. The baby is also at risk of disease, and is almost certainly at high risk of being raised in relative poverty, because most girls here as sex workers come from very poor circumstances. 

 

The chance of bringing a non-adult, completely innocent and dependent human into the equation is a much, much bigger ethical concern than risking the temptation to add some peripheral risk to other consenting adults.

 

Furthermore, in many places in the west you can get the snip for free. Insurance, national health services, and NGO's cover the costs in lots of places, and even if you have to pay out of pocket, the cost is low, far less than most of us spend in a day or 2 partying here in Pattaya. The cost is almost incalculably less than one would pay for taking care of a baby for a couple decades, or more.

 

So I say again, if you are a regular monger, get the snip. Just do it. It really is the right thing, and the smart thing, to do.

 

Yes going in without a "raincoat" is dangerous and it has happened to me when a little drunk. Luckily I have not paid the price, my point is it is not just mongerers who should worry, watch out for the traffic, you are more likely to get killed by that.

I know a bloke who has been snipped, unsnipped and now snipped again. Each time he was certain of his direction in life and each time he ended up regretting the procedure.

 

Things change in people's lives.  Most BM's just monger as a hobby really so they would have to be sure of themselves to take a step like that especially when there are many alternate ways of preventing unwanted pregnancies if you have the discipline.

I really can't be bothered to read all the replies! but I am guessing that(I hope that) people have questioned the thought behind this!

 

Why would that even be a concern over the HIV/AIDS, why would the snip make it any safer really?

 

Condoms are 99.9% affective and if you don't bag up when you are mongering? then you deserve what ever nasty that comes your way!

 

 

 

Bill

A vasectomy does not guarantee no pregnancy - sure the odds are extremely low, but it can happen. I had a neighbor who knocked up his wife 12yrs after he got the snip - guy was sure his wife had fucked around with someone and insisted on a paternity test. Made for a very interesting time in their relationship which they laugh about now. Try did consider suing the physician and that's when they learned that sometimes things manage to reconnect on their own, so to speak.

 

Also, why would I adopt when I can have my own. My genes are excellent, a better choice than an unknown set of troubles.

 

I never follow up with P4P girls and they have no access to my regular life. I most always bag up, but have bb'd at times - so theoretically there may be some children of mine unknowst to me. So what.

 

It's a personal choice. Funny to hear a mongerer get all caught up with the ethics of it all.

OK first off I want to say that of course it is your choice. like everything in life it is 'up to you', I started with a sort of preachy stance in hopes of strirring some discusiion on the topic, To mor honestly stae my case I'd say instead of "Should Get Sterilised" something like "Should Seriously Consider Carefully The Possible Benefits of Being Sterilized"

 

All opinions I state here are mine, but I still reserve the right to state them as strongly as I please.

 

Do you think being sterile makes you less virile, less of a man? Not attacking, just asking. I can say I have enjoyed sex more since I had the snip and honestly wish Ihad done ityears and years earlier.

 

I don't think it is inappropriate to think about the costs. Raising a child is perhaps one of the most expensive endeavors a person can undertake. One should consider all the aspects of being a parent before becoming one.

 

Possible future parenthood is something to consder for the younger guys, sure. But think of this, there are lots and lots of babies out there with no homes or families, why not consider taking in one of those children to rais instead of insisting on one created from your own DNA? 

 

And if you are really stuck on the idea you may want to use your own DNA keep your eye on this new proceedure that should be availble soon. A 10 year male contraceptive injection that can easily be reversed at any time.

 

 

LOL, you did not get my point, sickens me in terms of going through some unnatural and unnecessary medical procedure to prevent me having children when in fact i rather do want to have children so why should i give this up just because i monger as a hobby??

 

Then now you are talking in more crazy stuff of telling people to give up their own natural birth DNA to adopt or some link about yet another unnatural procedure??? No one said you dont have the right to voice your opinion. As i said Up to you to do what you want but dont come here and preach to others like you know what is right or wrong when it comes to what is essentially a very important personal decision.

 

I will tell you this, i would rather be born to a single mother who struggled to bring me up but at least gave me a chance of life than to not have experience of life because furryman insisted my biological father get the snip due to $ expenses!!

People come from wildly different backgrounds and are in different situations, I hadn't even considered this until I started planning out the 'road to expatdom' in pattaya.  

 

Furryman's expat thread was the first thing that made me think about this and I'm 95% planning one myself at this stage.  Simply for selfish reasons, I don't (think) I want kids and additionally the financial impact would be substancial on my quality of life (unless I'd changed my mind and decided that this was what I wanted to do).  

 

Its one thing as a tourist but what about if you are an expat, you are leaving a potential avenue for you to be exploited emotionally and/or financially.

 

It doesn't mean you can't change your mind and reverse it, it doesn't mean you don't bag up, but condoms break, I'd be suprised if there is a BM here who hasn't broken at least one.

LOL, you did not get my point, sickens me in terms of going through some unnatural and unnecessary medical procedure to prevent me having children when in fact i rather do want to have children so why should i give this up just because i monger as a hobby??

 

Then now you are talking in more crazy stuff of telling people to give up their own natural birth DNA to adopt or some link about yet another unnatural procedure??? No one said you dont have the right to voice your opinion. As i said Up to you to do what you want but dont come here and preach to others like you know what is right or wrong when it comes to what is essentially a very important personal decision.

 

I will tell you this, i would rather be born to a single mother who struggled to bring me up but at least gave me a chance of life than to not have experience of life because furryman insisted my biological father get the snip due to $ expenses!!

I don't think it is crazy to adopt a child who has no family, my friends who were adopted and those who have adopted certainly don't think it is crazy. My brother has 8 children of his own and a 9th that is actually the child of his wife's cousin. The fostered kid in the family is as well loved and cared for as any of the others. To think a child must be raised by it's biological parents to be loved and cared for IS crazy IMO. 

 

Almost all of modern medicine is 'unnatural', so that is a silly argument, really. I have a good friend and a BM here who is alive today because of an unnatural bit of wire holding one of his coronary arteries open so blood can flow. Is that too unnatural for you as well?

 

As far as being born vs not being conceived, that is an impossible argument. What about all the babies who are not conceived because of condoms, birth control pills, IUDs or whatever. None of those babies exist except in some theoretical sense. One cannot have a preference without first existing.

 

People come from wildly different backgrounds and are in different situations, I hadn't even considered this until I started planning out the 'road to expatdom' in pattaya.  

 

Furryman's expat thread was the first thing that made me think about this and I'm 95% planning one myself at this stage.  Simply for selfish reasons, I don't (think) I want kids and additionally the financial impact would be substancial on my quality of life (unless I'd changed my mind and decided that this was what I wanted to do).  

 

Its one thing as a tourist but what about if you are an expat, you are leaving a potential avenue for you to be exploited emotionally and/or financially.

 

It doesn't mean you can't change your mind and reverse it, it doesn't mean you don't bag up, but condoms break, I'd be suprised if there is a BM here who hasn't broken at least one.

 

I had a condom break on me recently for the first time ever, Did not realize it until I pulled out and the end of my dick was sticking out through the broken rubber. Cannot tell you how happy I am to know an accidental pregnancy is just not possible. 

Gee...

 

I wish I can voice my opinion but this board dont tolerate freedom of speech.