Staff steal from Bar problem

[chris_heaton]

Can any bar owner give some advice please.

 

I had a girl bartender who a customer pointed out was leaving the building via the back door with a large box. When I looked out I saw her getting onto her Thai husbands motorbike nwith a very large box. Her husband was wearing a big coat and looked very pregnant, as he had loads of stuff pushed up the front of the coat! I went to try and see what was happening but they sped off quickly on the bike.

 

Going back inside I checked if anything was missing and found that they had taken all the glasses from the bar! There was also other stuff missing from the kitchen but could not identify what it was at that time. I then told the Cashier to call her and tell her to turn around and come back with everything she had taken or she need not come back to the bar any more.

 

By the next day she never retuirned I told everyone she was sacked and would get no salary and that she was very lucky I did not call the police becasue she had been with me a long time and things only went bad with her since the Thai husband came on the seen.

 

A couple of days later she turned up at the bar asking for her wages. I told her she was a very stupid girl to expect that she can just steal from me then expect wages! She then went to the police. The police came and asked why I would not give her any money. They were told she stole from the bar and the customer who pointed her out to me leaving the bar also made a statement and my cashier said that she phoned her and told her to bring the stuff back or get no money. The police then just told her she could have no money and I was a generous man not to make a report against her.

 

Today I have just had a visit from the Labour Department! about her wages. I have not talked to them yet as they came when I was out of the bar.

 

The question is, has anyone had experiance with this department. What is the law here in Thailand, should I just pay her and forget it, but then I will look stupid in front of the rest of the staff and they could all start stealing! Or should I stick to my guns and say no salary or should I press the theft issue with the police and say I want her arrested?

 

Chris

[***]

dont no about thailand but out here in belgium if this happens that Labour Department is involved its not a good sign.

i hope u get it sorted mate.

[whitespider - RIP]

Chris

 

I cant be 100% sure but this is what happened to a pal in BKK under similar circumstances.

 

You have the rock and hard place situation if you have a contract with her to pay wages - subject to the terms of that contract.

 

Legally the wages must be paid - compensation re the stolen items is subject to legal proceedings and without a conviction she will be deemed "innocent" (quite correctly if you think about it).

 

Whilst she remains "innocent" then the terms of her employment contract are enforceable.

 

If she "quit" and your contract has an enforceable notice period then you probably do not have to pay her. If you "sacked" her then wages for the entire notice period will be due (unless she is convicted). Without a "conviction" you may also be liable to any compensation deemed due by the Labour people.

 

I know it all seems very unfair - but at the same time these rules are meant to protect innocent employees against bad employers.

 

Your best bet might be to meet her and tell her that if she proceeds with her claim that you wil file the complaint with the police - maybe that will cause her to simply drop everything and call it quits.

[willhaz74]

i know its easy for me to say,but you should have went to the police as soon as you new she stole from you,as for the stuff she stole its your word against hers,she can say anything,

[davethailand]

Chris-

 

How long has she worked for you?

 

Did you pay salary tax and social insurance for her? (ie was she registered as staff?)

 

Your best bet might be to meet her and tell her that if she proceeds with her claim that you wil file the complaint with the police - maybe that will cause her to simply drop everything and call it quits.

Yes or make a report anyway so they can see its been done! but then you have the thai bf shit.

Edited November 29, 2007 by davethailand

[davethailand]

Where has Chris gone?

[chris_heaton]

daveinthailand - I'm here! Reading these replies!

 

She has worked here about 4 or 5 months, No Longer.

She was not registered as Staff.

 

Chris

Edited November 29, 2007 by chris_heaton

[davethailand]

daveinthailand - I'm here! Reading these replies!

 

She has worked here about 4 or 5 months, No Longer.

She was not registered as Staff.

Chris

Then I believe she has no grounds whatsoever!

find out Chris and make sure she was not down as an employee (salary tax/ social), if not then as far as you are concerned she was part time etc AND she stole from you, you say the police told her she was lucky, use this to warn her to forget the whole issue.

I think its a bit strange that the labour department would get involved as she's not on the company staff lists BUT they do use these opportunities to make sure you are paying taxes for the right amount of staff.

I'd suggest you have a chat with whoever does your legal stuff.

Edited November 29, 2007 by davethailand

[brad117]

I know you were trying to do the right thing initially by not filing a report with the police. But that very well may have covered you down the road. Maybe not but at least it would have made the bitch deal with some hassel. Why cut her some slack when she obviously doesn't give a shit about you. Unfortunately often times it comes down to CYA.

[Captain Murgatroyd]

If you wanted to be a completely evil sod about it... Invite her to bring her husband to the bar to discouss the charges that you are now obliged bring against the pair of them, (As the husband helped to steal the goods ).

 

Whilst they are there, arrange for someone to steal / impound their bike! ( to be returned when all your missing goods are....)

 

Don't get mad, get even!

 

(and before everyone tells me how totally impractical this is... it's ment semi humorously)

Murg

[Panudate]

Tricky one mate, all you can do is file charges against her for theft and then see if she still wants to pursue it.

 

Chances are she won't as it will cost her more in bribes than you will probably give her to even make anyone pay attention.

[silentbob]

The law in Thailand and Thai courts for that matter are pretty black and white. It starts with arbitration, I have been there unjustly so and ended up paying out a small amount as the justice in charge did not want to see it go to court, I did.

 

Check the information I give you as it is off the top of my head. You have to pay her three months salary if you have fired her, forget the reasons, details such as being on the books are quite irrelevant, thats how it is. Report her for the theft, which I have no doubt will be treated as a totally separate incident and you will find is unrelated to the case with the labor department, but she may just go to prison.

 

Example: A friend of mine runs heavy plant in BKK, one of his employees whilst drunk, drove a JCB over some hi-so bods mercedes and a couple of other cars, fled the scene only to be arrested. Once my pal had paid out the shortfall on the insurance damage he rightly fired the employee, who took him to court and got his three months salary, my mate still can't laugh about it.

 

Mai pen Rai.

[Braveheart]

One question that comes to mind Chris. Are you 100% certain that the person who came to your bar while you were not there is a legitimate labour board representative? If not it could simply have been an attempted bluff on the part of your former employee. I realize it is unlikely but stranger things have happened.

[davethailand]

The law in Thailand and Thai courts for that matter are pretty black and white. It starts with arbitration, I have been there unjustly so and ended up paying out a small amount as the justice in charge did not want to see it go to court, I did.

 

Check the information I give you as it is off the top of my head. You have to pay her three months salary if you have fired her, forget the reasons, details such as being on the books are quite irrelevant, thats how it is. Report her for the theft, which I have no doubt will be treated as a totally separate incident and you will find is unrelated to the case with the labor department, but she may just go to prison.

 

Example: A friend of mine runs heavy plant in BKK, one of his employees whilst drunk, drove a JCB over some hi-so bods mercedes and a couple of other cars, fled the scene only to be arrested. Once my pal had paid out the shortfall on the insurance damage he rightly fired the employee, who took him to court and got his three months salary, my mate still can't laugh about it.

 

Mai pen Rai.

Are you sure? I was chatting with my thai manager about this and he's convinced that as she is not a legal employee and has never paid tax she is therefore not covered.

 

One question that comes to mind Chris. Are you 100% certain that the person who came to your bar while you were not there is a legitimate labour board representative? If not it could simply have been an attempted bluff on the part of your former employee. I realize it is unlikely but stranger things have happened.

[chris_heaton]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

The outcome was that the Labour guy never returned however she returned that night with her husband bringking back what they stole. The police also turned up. In front of the police she said she never stole anything, I pointed out how could she bring something back if she never took it in the first place! This logic even the policeman understood. He said something to her and she started crying.

 

I had checked the Labour Dept website so had all my facts ready. Found out could sack her wothout compensation for dishonesty or breaking the law. Told them this is what I had done. I also said I would pay her final salary after resonable deductions, so her 5,000 baht became 125 baht. The policeman asked if I could do a little better so I upped it to 2,000. She was happy and the police was happy and I was happy to make the problem go away.

 

I told all my staff that next time the police would be brought in straight away. Strangely as she went out of the bar she told all the staff that next week she would be back working here!!! I suppose it's a Thai saving face thing.

 

While checking the law found out that had to give 4 days off a month, staff could not work more than 48 hours per week without overtime, holidays worked had to be paid at tripple time! etc etc

 

I think many bars would be out of business if this was strictly enforced.

 

Chris

[silentbob]

Are you sure? I was chatting with my thai manager about this and he's convinced that as she is not a legal employee and has never paid tax she is therefore not covered.

 

Not 100% sure no, but having been through the legal system once I have a gut feeling that the expression of choice should not be one of surprise if the outcome is somewhat unreasonable by western standards.