Bars and Minimum wage

[chris_heaton]

As most bar owners will know the minimum wage of 300 baht per day becomes law in Pattaya on 1st January.

 

At the moment I pay 4,000 baht per month for a girl, but she also gets free accomodation plus tips and lady drinks etc. Are bar girls exempt from the rules? If I have to pay the increase to 9,000 baht a month then to keep the differential I will also have to increase the salary for cleaners, cashier, manager etc. Even by upping all the beer prices I do not see how the business could afford to carry on.

 

Strangely the girls themselves don't want a rise! They get enough money already when you count their other activities with customers. Maybe one way to go would be to sack them all and allow them to sit at the bar as freelancers and if they turn up every day give them a big tip of 4,000 baht. Or pay them 9,000 baht but charge them a compulary 5,000 for their accomodation.

 

I contemplated doing nothing but I know one day when I have a problem with a girl she wil be off to the labour office to complain and then big problems!

 

How are bar owners going to deal with this. Have you even started to think about it yet?

 

Regards

Chris

[david555]

the places they stay mostly only pay there a 2000 /2900 bht (and share even in group)

as you can not go sit in their place as a bargirl ....but..you could do the cleaning /catering yourself....just work more & harder

 

"Strangely the girls themselves don't want a rise! They get enough money already "

Pattaya girl no need in more money..........= ??????? i am surprised to hear that

[PeterKe]

Unfortunately the law has not been well thought though at all, particularly for the service industry where there are many other perks besides salary alone.

 

Bars have not been dealt with specfically, but the Thai hotel Association made some representations to the government on behalf of hotels. Most hotels paid under the minimum wage, but when free accommodation, free meals at canteen, laundry and in particular Service Charge is taken into account, the hotel associates are generally paid way over mnimum wage.

The government basically said tough. There was a possibility that SC could be included in wages, but this never happened, and it was confirmed that none of the other benefits can be included in a wage calculation.

 

What some hotels are doing is increasing the minimum wage, and then decreasing SC. There are extra costs with this (pensions & bonus are based on salary not SC), but it was a way for hotels to manage the increase without going out of business. Most of the 5 stars however increased to 273 per day this year and 300 from January without touching Service Charge.

 

Sorry my news isn't very good, but maybe you can come to some sort of arrangement with barfines/ladydrinks, where they are included in salary? It takes away a lot of incentive though as employees would get them regardless of how hard they worked.

 

It would be interesting to see what other bars are doing (and the solution you propose might be the best) as basically everyone is in the same ill thought out situation. Best of luck with it...

[Sexyfarangman]

Unfortunately the law has not been well thought though at all, particularly for the service industry where there are many other perks besides salary alone.

 

Bars have not been dealt with specfically, but the Thai Hotel Association made some representations to the government on behalf of hotels. Most hotels paid under the minimum wage, but when free accommodation, free meals at canteen, laundry and in particular Service Charge is taken into account, the hotel associates are generally paid way over mnimum wage.

The government basically said tough. There was a possibility that SC could be included in wages, but this never happened, and it was confirmed that none of the other benefits can be included in a wage calculation.

 

What some hotels are doing is increasing the minimum wage, and then decreasing SC. There are extra costs with this (pensions & bonus are based on salary not SC), but it was a way for hotels to manage the increase without going out of business. Most of the 5 stars however increased to 273 per day this year and 300 from January without touching Service Charge.

 

Sorry my news isn't very good, but maybe you can come to some sort of arrangement with barfines/ladydrinks, where they are included in salary? It takes away a lot of incentive though as employees would get them regardless of how hard they worked.

 

It would be interesting to see what other bars are doing (and the solution you propose might be the best) as basically everyone is in the same ill thought out situation. Best of luck with it...

Unfortunately the law has not been well thought though at all, particularly for the service industry where there are many other perks besides salary alone.

 

Bars have not been dealt with specfically, but the Thai Hotel Association made some representations to the government on behalf of hotels. Most hotels paid under the minimum wage, but when free accommodation, free meals at canteen, laundry and in particular Service Charge is taken into account, the hotel associates are generally paid way over mnimum wage.

The government basically said tough. There was a possibility that SC could be included in wages, but this never happened, and it was confirmed that none of the other benefits can be included in a wage calculation.

 

What some hotels are doing is increasing the minimum wage, and then decreasing SC. There are extra costs with this (pensions & bonus are based on salary not SC), but it was a way for hotels to manage the increase without going out of business. Most of the 5 stars however increased to 273 per day this year and 300 from January without touching Service Charge.

 

Sorry my news isn't very good, but maybe you can come to some sort of arrangement with barfines/ladydrinks, where they are included in salary? It takes away a lot of incentive though as employees would get them regardless of how hard they worked.

 

It would be interesting to see what other bars are doing (and the solution you propose might be the best) as basically everyone is in the same ill thought out situation. Best of luck with it...

 

Minimum wage laws don't really make sense in any country. Your observations illustrate why. Minimum wage laws affirm the old adage: the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Davie Duke]

A Thai gal explained to me that many small businesses can not afford to pay the new wage. Is this law(election tactic) enforceable?

[PeterKe]

A Thai gal explained to me that many small businesses can not afford to pay the new wage. Is this law(election tactic) enforceable?

 

It is as enforceable as any law in Thailand. If a company is in breach of it, the they are breaking the law. Of course you have to decide if the authorities would come after one bar among hundreds, but there is the risk. The big international companies all comply with the existing 273 baht per day in Chonburi, and I believe will comply with the 300 baht per day minimum wage in January.

[gogo dog]

There is already a minimum wage, they are just increasing it. If you pay an employee B4,000/month now, you are not paying minimum wage. I can't see Jan 1st will make any difference for you.

[Edge]

............................ Maybe one way to go would be to sack them all and allow them to sit at the bar as freelancers and if they turn up every day give them a big tip of 4,000 baht...................

 

FLs in bars are not new of course and for Beer Bars that may be the way to go, as long as the girls remember they have to stay to get the "tip" at the end of the month.

 

.

[key visa thailand]

Hi Guys, I maybe wrong but does the minimum wage apply to all sectors, I am not sure, How would a person in a drinking establishment and so on be able to report they are not getting the minimum wage as most of these employees are not on the books.

 

There is two kinds of accounts in Thailand

 

1, Business that has work permits involved has to pay social security for there staff and also verify with the Labor office they are employed.

 

2, Business no work permit does not have to declare staff if they choose not too, takings, vat etc. can submit as they wish.

 

According to my lawyer he may be wrong so if he is tell me but according to him the minimum wage can only be enforced for the people who pay Social security and are registered,

 

But I am sure most employees in Pattaya would be earning more than the minimum wage, I know my staff are.

[El Cata]

The minimum wage only applies to those who are working for 'proper' companies, mainly large corporations. Most people working in the service & manufacturing sectors are paid cash in hand (many are illegal Cambodians, Burmese or Vietnamese) so are therefore working outside the system. This includes the Isaan farmers but market forces & a labour shortage are already forcing wage increases there.

[tode1640]

Most people working in the service & manufacturing sectors are paid cash in hand (many are illegal Cambodians, Burmese or Vietnamese) so are therefore working outside the system. This includes the Isaan farmers but market forces & a labour shortage are already forcing wage increases there.

 

I know one girl well who's basic salary is a lot less than 273 baht per day. She recently needed a new job in a hurry, and started working as a service girl in one of the big gogos. I am quite sure that this is a "cash under the table" job and is quite illegal. However, I guess that this happens a lot in Pattaya.

[El Cata]

I know one girl well who's basic salary is a lot less than 273 baht per day. She recently needed a new job in a hurry, and started working as a service girl in one of the big gogos. I am quite sure that this is a "cash under the table" job and is quite illegal. However, I guess that this happens a lot in Pattaya.

 

Not just Pattaya but (greater) Bangkok where I live. Case in point, the GF works in a clothing 'factory' & gets paid 1B per shirt, 50 satang for cuffs etc; used to be called piece work in the UK. She could make 10k per month if she worked every day like a maniac but of course she doesn't as I supplement her income & she only goes to get out of the house. If she doesn't work, or there's a power cut or a delay in materials getting delivered she doesn't get paid.

 

When we first moved here, we went to a local snooker place & the hostess said she was only paid 3000B per month. She was Thai & the illegals only get 2000B max but get free accommodation & both survive on tips.

 

It's a bleak world in the black economy.

[sinkorswim]

The minimum wage has been in place for for several months now.

[carsmike111]

Are we talking £6 a day hear 300bt fuck if you can't pay that you might aswell close the bar lets face it that is 5/6 beers a day mind you it may mean you have to pay your own tab

[PeterKe]

The minimum wage has been in place for for several months now.

 

It came in last April, but some provinces, including Chonburi, were allowed to phase it in. First to 273 baht per day, and starting January 1st 2013, to 300 baht per day. I think that's why it's being discussed again.

 

Officially the minimum wage applies to everyone. Certainly there is a huge grey economy here and we al live in the real world, but legally it applies to all. Avoiding minimum wage by not having people officially hired/paying social securiy etc., is only avoiding one law by breaking some other laws. The original OP is totally correct - it's all fine until one disgruntled amployee decides to make a case to the authorities.

[key visa thailand]

The minimum wage has been in place for for several months now.

For future reference mate, is the minimum wage affecting gogo bars mate also? I thought it was starting January 2013 and was only aimed at the not cash under the table companies.

[Patapusr]

Give the girls a choice. Tell them you can only increase their wages if you declare all their wages including bar fines, lady drinks etc to the tax dept....That will make them think twice as lots of these girls earn more than nurses and quite a few earn more than doctors and not a baht of that is paid in taxes..

Its too easy for some people to say its 'only $3 or £2' or whatever, but this isnt Oz or UK its Thailand and the country works in Thai baht.

If every transaction took into account other currencies, there would be no bars or restaurants left for us to sit in. (OK Ethiopian Birr might work).....

[david555]

Give the girls a choice. Tell them you can only increase their wages if you declare all their wages including bar fines, lady drinks etc to the tax dept....That will make them think twice as lots of these girls earn more than nurses and quite a few earn more than doctors and not a baht of that is paid in taxes..

Its too easy for some people to say its 'only $3 or £2' or whatever, but this isnt Oz or UK its Thailand and the country works in Thai baht.

If every transaction took into account other currencies, there would be no bars or restaurants left for us to sit in. (OK Ethiopian Birr might work).....

Did you consider by doing that it means that you also" expose" the earnings from the bar or other business to Thai tax offices ....., what you can pay you must have earned it also, (first rule for Black earnings) bigger bill to come for the boss sure , i hope you are not an accountant

[swissbanker]

To create a win-win situation I would:

 

- renew their contracts hiring them for 15 days per month only, same LD commission

- pay a higher commission on ladydrinks they sell on the other 15 days as freelancers

 

That way they actually do get a rise, without you having to pay much more, if at all, since they might sell more ladydrinks they sell during their freelancer days.

 

If I were you I'd run it thru an Excel spreadsheet to see where the breakevens are, then apply it. And I would draw it as comparison on a big sheet to explain it to the girls, so they can see the numbers like:

 

Old. New

Fixed Salary. 4000. 4500

Fixed working days. 30. 15

- ladydrinks commission. x. x

Freelance days. 0. 15

- ladydrinks commission. 0. x+?

 

 

[swissbanker]

And you would hire half of your girls from 1 - 15 of each month and the other half from 16 - 31 of each month. To be even more specific you could hire the best LD sales for 16 working days in long months and the others for 15 days only.

[swissbanker]

One more. It would help to convince the girls if several bars would invent this concept. So the word spreads among the girls and they usually believe what others do....

[PeterKe]

One more. It would help to convince the girls if several bars would invent this concept. So the word spreads among the girls and they usually believe what others do....

 

If I remember, in Thai labour law, you have to make an employee permanent after either 6 or 12 months if they work more than 40 hours a week. That means full monthly salary, social security etc.

If they are freelance, but get commissions, it is considered working.

 

Basically there is no straightforward loopholes. Many places will break this law, the employees don't mind because their take home pay is still decent, and it is a matter of risking it.

[whitespider - RIP]

 

Basically there is no straightforward loopholes. Many places will break this law, the employees don't mind because their take home pay is still decent, and it is a matter of risking it.

 

This is the key.

 

Many places will not pay it - period. However they will be contravening the law and it may be used against you at some point.

 

I agree that most girls are not realy bothered or interested but if you piss one off and she reports you then you could possibly have issues. This I think is the thing to take into great consideration.

 

Any "advice" given would therefore have to be that you should pay it. Reality is an entirely different matter. if you dont pay you will certainly not be alone.

 

Same same the "income tax" return laws - most expats dont do them, even though the law says they must (if in Thailand over 180 days in a calendar year, regardless of income or where it comes from). 99.9% never get caught but if, for example, you got pulled up for something ELSE they could then use this against you.

[wobblyjohn]

 

Same same the "income tax" return laws - most expats dont do them, even though the law says they must (if in Thailand over 180 days in a calendar year, regardless of income or where it comes from). 99.9% never get caught but if, for example, you got pulled up for something ELSE they could then use this against you.

As long as you produce your P60 to show you are paying tax in the UK there isn't a problem, its a bit worrying when you get a letter written in Thai with an official stamp from the tax office

[key visa thailand]

I was thinking about this and business owners worrying about staff complaining!!

 

Who are they going to complain to? I deal with the tax offices monthly and they would not have the time to listen especially to a person who has never paid a dime in tax in there life? what happens if the tax office wish to see there bank books to prove salary with plenty of overseas deposits and no tax paid or a good explanation? What will they say "I am a bar worker or a sexy dancer" and my wages are shit!!!

 

Thought selling your flesh was illegal? I am sure they will be asking for trouble themselves, Most of these girls would die with only the minimum wage anyway, they are all earning more, so I do not think it will cause any problems, If there salary is shit we all know they just move on anyway.

 

But this is just my opinion